Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aspronot · 07-14-2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shalak

The first issue I want to mention is specifically with the idea of Theistic biblical evolution. I will frame the issue as I see it and maybe more light can be shed on it.

In the Old Testament in Genesis chapter 5 we have the Genealogy from Adam to Noah; Genesis chapter 11 shows Shem to Abraham. If you turn to Matthew in the New Testament and ignore the apparent inconsistency between the genealogy when compared with Luke(sigh), it gives you Christ's Genealogy from Abraham to Joseph. I did not bother to count up all the years because quite frankly I have done enough cursing lately. The point is these genealogies are one of the things used by creationists to substantiate the young earth claim but apparently does not cause any heartburn for a theistic evolutionist.

My problem with that is assuming the young creationists use the genealogy and come up with about 4000 to 6000 years from Adam to Christ that means human's as we know it have only been in existence/evolved to their present state for a lot less time then science shows..... I guess my question for that is how in the world is that consistent? Or am I being ignorant and ignoring some relevant fact?

Even if you take a non-literal view of the Genesis creation account.... The Genealogies can be used to get a pretty rough approximation of mankind's existence from Adam until now. I guess Adam is not the first created man in a theistic evolution standpoint but rather the first evolved man? Even so don't we have a lot of evidence for more advanced forms of humanity that far exceed 6000 years?

It is probably not wise to use an existing thread for a new (and unrelated) question. Your question also does not really fit into BC&H. Perhaps you might like to post it over on Evolution/Creation under Science Discussions.

shalak · 07-14-2011, 10:50 PM

ah my apologies, I will move the question.

seattlegal · 07-15-2011, 12:29 AM

From my reading of Genesis, it would appear from Genesis 10:8-12 that the people gathered together at Babel in order to make "mighty hunting expeditions" into other areas "in order to make a name for themselves." In other words, they were militarily aggressive, and wanted bragging rights.

8 Cush fathered Nimrod, who was the first powerful man on earth. 9 He was a powerful hunter in the sight of the LORD. That is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a powerful hunter in the sight of the LORD." 10 His kingdom started with Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth-ir, Calah, 12 and Resen, between Nineveh and the great city Calah.

But that's just my own reading. Your mileage may vary.

seattlegal · 07-15-2011, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidstarlingm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

This is only one of the millions of reasons for declaring this story a fiction.

Which is why it is extremely odd that this very supernatural story (languages being abruptly confused is not at all similar to any natural event) is reflected in multiple cultures around the world, particularly cultures (like those in South America) that would have had no transaction whatsoever with middle eastern cultures.

Anomalies like these provide good reason to expand our understanding of how religion has evolved.

I've heard similar North American Native stories, as well. Their stories have more emphasis as to why different people live in different ways than about different languages though.

semiopen · 07-15-2011, 05:55 AM

There is a talmudic teaching that some of the people at the tower were turned into monkeys.

Ultra Orthodox kids are taught this in Yeshivas, and it might give them a sense of smugness to observe the silliness of scientists who have it backwards.

shalak · 07-15-2011, 06:29 AM

It is a weird feeling having what you believe for 17 years begin to quickly unravel in front of you just in case any of you were wondering :P But I am sure most of you know exactly what I am talking about.

Atheos · 07-15-2011, 08:02 AM

Life is like that. The older I get the more I realize just how little I actually know (or knew back when). In the long run though, is it really that different from when you learned there was no tooth fairy, Easter Bunny or Santa Claus?

Growing up and coming to terms with the reality that there really is no safety net and you're on your own -- that's real freedom and the consequences thereof.

semiopen · 07-15-2011, 12:50 PM

I don't know if there are any studies, but probably over half the people start out not believing in the specific myths. I don't recall ever believing the flood or creation account.

It's not about atheism but just whether a given account is believable.

It's not about intelligence either, seems people are wired differently in this area.

Toto · 07-15-2011, 10:08 PM

Reading the Tower of Babel literally

Quote:

Over the centuries theologians have come up with a lot of fancy words to describe God. One of these words is omnipresent: God is everywhere. But where is God in this story? He’s in heaven and he has to ‘come down’ to see what’s going on at Babel. Why is that? The answer is simple: the people who wrote the Bible thought they lived in a giant snow-globe...

Atheos · 07-18-2011, 06:53 AM

Well it's pretty obvious that much of the bible's cosmology is very primitive that way. A lot of rationalizing and metaphoric interpretation has to be done nowadays to defend these books with a straight face.

07-15-2011, 12:29 AM	#23
seattlegal Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Puget Sound Convergence Zone Posts: 1,309	From my reading of Genesis, it would appear from Genesis 10:8-12 that the people gathered together at Babel in order to make "mighty hunting expeditions" into other areas "in order to make a name for themselves." In other words, they were militarily aggressive, and wanted bragging rights. 8 Cush fathered Nimrod, who was the first powerful man on earth. 9 He was a powerful hunter in the sight of the LORD. That is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a powerful hunter in the sight of the LORD." 10 His kingdom started with Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth-ir, Calah, 12 and Resen, between Nineveh and the great city Calah. But that's just my own reading. Your mileage may vary.

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07-14-2011, 10:50 PM	#22
shalak Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 49	ah my apologies, I will move the question.

07-15-2011, 05:55 AM	#25
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	There is a talmudic teaching that some of the people at the tower were turned into monkeys. Ultra Orthodox kids are taught this in Yeshivas, and it might give them a sense of smugness to observe the silliness of scientists who have it backwards.

07-15-2011, 06:29 AM	#26
shalak Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 49	It is a weird feeling having what you believe for 17 years begin to quickly unravel in front of you just in case any of you were wondering :P But I am sure most of you know exactly what I am talking about.

07-15-2011, 08:02 AM	#27
Atheos Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heart of the Bible Belt Posts: 5,807	Life is like that. The older I get the more I realize just how little I actually know (or knew back when). In the long run though, is it really that different from when you learned there was no tooth fairy, Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? Growing up and coming to terms with the reality that there really is no safety net and you're on your own -- that's real freedom and the consequences thereof.

07-15-2011, 12:50 PM	#28
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	I don't know if there are any studies, but probably over half the people start out not believing in the specific myths. I don't recall ever believing the flood or creation account. It's not about atheism but just whether a given account is believable. It's not about intelligence either, seems people are wired differently in this area.

07-18-2011, 06:53 AM	#30
Atheos Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heart of the Bible Belt Posts: 5,807	Well it's pretty obvious that much of the bible's cosmology is very primitive that way. A lot of rationalizing and metaphoric interpretation has to be done nowadays to defend these books with a straight face.

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