Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-28-2007, 10:54 AM

Were Judaic monotheistic tendencies just a local cult until xianity came along?

So what might have happened is a very powerful Persian Zoroastrianism influencing the region, Rome getting the bug probably around the 380's and Judaism being dragged in by xians to give xianity some history? Constantine feels mixed - oh who is this war god Jesus? The full blown Emperor Christ is later.

premjan · 03-28-2007, 11:10 AM

The most remarkable contact of the Jews with Zoroastrianism was when Cyrus freed them from captivity in Babylon. The dates for Cyrus are well-known I think.

Clivedurdle · 03-28-2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

600 BC: Zarathustra forms a new religion in Persia
600 BC: Phoenicians circumnavigate Africa
600 BC: spread by merchants, Aramaic is the "lingua franca" of Syria and Palestine
587 BC: Nebuchadnezzar II conquers Judea (southern kingdom of the Hebrews), destroys Jerusalem and deports thousands of Jews (second Jewish diaspora)
580 BC: Nebuchadnezzar II builds eight monumental gates, the Esagila complex, the seven-storey ziggurat, and the Hanging Gardens

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/neareast.html

From memory I thought Zarathustra might have been several hundred years earlier.

Quote:

Ahura Mazda is the Avestan language name for an exalted divinity of ancient proto-Indo-Iranian religion that was subsequently declared by Zarathustra (Zoroaster) to be the one uncreated creator of all (God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

Quote:

Zoroaster is generally accepted as an authentic historical figure, but the period in which he lived remains unclear. Many scholarly estimates place him circa 1200 B.C., making him a candidate to be the founder of the earliest religion based on revealed scripture, while others place him anywhere between the 18th and the 6th centuries BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

(Monotheism may have Hindu roots!)

Loomis · 03-28-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Smith does not discuss the influence of the Persians and thus probably misses the plot. (Missing one of the greatest empires on the planet....hmmmm)

Mark S. Smith is God. :notworthy: He does not miss plots. :notworthy: He understands you. If you would just open your heart to him it will all become clear.

I did some googling and discovered this:
The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms by D. V. Edelman

Why don’t you buy it for $12.00 USD, read it, and then tell us what is says?

Note the name of the review author.

Jedi Mind Trick · 03-28-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

The most remarkable contact of the Jews with Zoroastrianism was when Cyrus freed them from captivity in Babylon. The dates for Cyrus are well-known I think.

Perhaps there was some correspondence before Cyrus? At any rate, the Enki / Ea / Yaw / Yahweh progression is one that has always made sense to me. But I'm no expert...

Loomis · 03-28-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

I don't think that Yahweh's monotheism need have any precursor found in Persia. There is ample evidence that it is homegrown.

I’m no expert. Maybe you are right. But can you give us an example?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

What about the idea that Hebrew monotheism evolved out of an earlier henotheism which in turn came from the original Canaanite polytheism of El the high God and his 70 or so sons?

I already mentioned this. See post #3. :wave:

Jedi Mind Trick · 03-28-2007, 12:21 PM

When talking about Zoroastrianism shouldn’t one be careful? Isn’t there two historical stages in Zoroastrianism where one stage is slightly different theologically than the other? I think it has something to do with dualism.

Like one stage has one all powerful God called who emanates Ahura Mazda and Angra Manyu. And the other stage is just has Ahura Mazda with Angra Manyu acting as a Satan type? I'm very sketchy on this but it seems to me that there are two schools of Zoroastrian thought.

Jedi Mind Trick · 03-28-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I’m no expert. Maybe you are right. But can you give us an example?

Hasn't it been shown that Yahweh inherited the attributes of El and also the attributes of his brother Baal? The Psalms and Deuteronomy have references the show Yahweh to bu subservient to El. Yahweh is also said to be great among the gods and then later he is the only god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I already mentioned this. See post #3. :wave:

Sorry but I didn't see that... apologies.

Jedi Mind Trick · 03-28-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I already mentioned this. See post #3. :wave:

From your link in that post:

Quote:

This four-tiered model of the divine family and council apparently went through a number of changes in early Israel. In the earliest stage, it would appear that Yahweh was one of these seventy children, each of whom was the patron deity of the seventy nations. This idea appears behind the Dead Sea Scrolls reading and the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:8-9. In this passage, El is the head of the divine family, and each member of the divine family receives a nation of hi s own: Israel is the portion of Yahweh. The Masoretic Text, evidently uncomfortable with the polytheism expressed in the phrase "according to the number of the divine sons," altered the reading to "according to the number of the children of Israel" (also thought to be seventy). Psalm 82 also presents the god El presiding in a divine assembly at which Yahweh stands up and makes his accusation against the other gods. Here the text shows the older religious worldview which the passage is denouncing.

Yahweh, it appears, evolved out of El worship.

Loomis · 03-28-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

Hasn't it been shown that Yahweh inherited the attributes of El and also the attributes of his brother Baal?

The issue of if Yahweh was a separate god from Baal is debatable. And even then it just depends on what part of the OT you are talking about.

Nevertheless - yea. Most secular bible scholars agree that Yahweh inherited the attributes of El and became the Most High.

But all of that is based on the postulate that Yahweh was a pre-existing outside god. That “evolutionary hypothesis” attempts to explain how the Israelites assimilated Yahweh and became monotheistic - but it still doesn’t explain where Yahweh came from in the first place.

God (Mark S. Smith) says Yahweh was not part of the Ugarit pantheon and was not simply a conflation between El and Baal.

The Question of Yahweh's Original Character

So this raises a goofy question:

Were the earliest Yahwists monotheists?

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03-28-2007, 10:54 AM	#31
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Were Judaic monotheistic tendencies just a local cult until xianity came along? So what might have happened is a very powerful Persian Zoroastrianism influencing the region, Rome getting the bug probably around the 380's and Judaism being dragged in by xians to give xianity some history? Constantine feels mixed - oh who is this war god Jesus? The full blown Emperor Christ is later.

03-28-2007, 11:10 AM	#32
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	The most remarkable contact of the Jews with Zoroastrianism was when Cyrus freed them from captivity in Babylon. The dates for Cyrus are well-known I think.

03-28-2007, 12:21 PM	#37
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	When talking about Zoroastrianism shouldn’t one be careful? Isn’t there two historical stages in Zoroastrianism where one stage is slightly different theologically than the other? I think it has something to do with dualism. Like one stage has one all powerful God called who emanates Ahura Mazda and Angra Manyu. And the other stage is just has Ahura Mazda with Angra Manyu acting as a Satan type? I'm very sketchy on this but it seems to me that there are two schools of Zoroastrian thought.

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