FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-10-2007, 10:18 AM   #11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphen View Post
From the same article:

"But this is all moot. For in fact Tertullian does not link Sentius Saturninus with the census in Luke 2:1, as is commonly supposed by those who ignore the context of this passage. Rather, he says censuses (plural, not singular) prove that Jesus had brothers, in defense of Luke 8:19-21. Since Tertullian believed Jesus was the first born, just as Luke says he was, there could not be any record of his brothers in the census of the nativity. Therefore, Tertullian could not possibly have been thinking of the census during which Jesus was born. So he may well mean another Sentius Saturninus (an ancestor of the other), who was governor of Syria in A.D. 19-21 (Tacitus, Annals 2.76-81), a plausible time before which Jesus' siblings would have been born. For the sentence sed et census constat actos sub Augusto nunc in Iudaea per Sentium Saturninum, apud quos genus eius inquirere potuissent, can be translated "But it is also well known that censuses were conducted under the Augustus in that time in Judaea by Sentius Saturninus, consulting which they can investigate his family."[15.3] But even if Tertullian meant brothers by a previous marriage, and thus had in mind the previous Sentius Saturninus, this still would not be the census during which Jesus was born, since Jesus had to be born later to a subsequent wife of Joseph. And Tertullian in that case would simply be bluffing, since no census under the first Saturninus would have counted the inhabitants of Judaea (as shown above and below)."
Latin text and English translation by Evans.

Reading the context -- Tertullian is appealing to the well-known existence of a census just taken, in which details of Jesus' family might be read -- certainly suggests to me that the census of Luke is in mind. If Mr Carrier feels that it is possible that some other census was in mind, he is certainly welcome to do so. But perhaps he merely seeks to discard data, not use it?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 01-10-2007, 06:36 PM   #12
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphen View Post
I came across this passage from Tertullian’s “Against Marcion” while reading Carrier’s article “Luke vs. Matthew on the Year of Christ’s Birth,” and was wondering if someone more knowledgeable than me could shed some light on it:

“But there is historical proof that at this very time a census had been taken in Judea by Sentius Saturninus, which might have satisfied their inquiry respecting the family and descent of Christ.”

I am especially interested to hear what mythicists think of this. I have read some of the arguments on this forum that have interested me the historicity of Jesus, which before I took for granted.

Would census records in this time be detailed enough to show what Tertuallian claims, that Jesus had brothers, and would Tertullian have had access to such records? If so, unless Tertullian misunderstood something, or is simply lying, this would seem to be evidence for the historicity of Jesus.

We may make the postulate that Tertullian is an historical figure,
or the postulate that Tertullian is nothing but a fourth century profile
of the inventor of historiography, the "worldly advisor of the Emperor
Constantine", Eusebius.

Jay Raskin, in his book The Evolution of Christs and
Christianities
, points out that it is likely that Eusebius has interpolated
Tertullian more than once.

Arnaldo Momigliano, reviews T.D.Barnes' Tertullian and makes some comments about Tertullian
(and Barnes) to start you thinking.
mountainman is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:37 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.