PaperCut

There is a recent thread in the Philosophy sub-forum on this subject, but it's too abstract. So I thought I ask this question one more time.

Is free will overrated? And if so, does that undermine the plausibility of religions, whose worldviews include deities that judge human beings based on they choose to do?

It is well established that we are the product of both nature and nurture.

On the nature side, our genetic inheritance lays the foundation of who we will become as an adult. Our genes profoundly affect our behavior, emotions, preferences, predispositions, and almost all other aspect of our physical and mental self.

As for nurture, our observation of, and interaction with our parents other people, along with our other childhood experiences are principally responsible for what kind of person we will become and what we will believe. It is not surprising that a large majority of people are biased to simply inherit their parents’ religious beliefs without being capable of objectively investigating other worldviews.

And yet, we neither get to choose are genes nor how competent our parents are at raising children or what they believe.

Is free will overrated?


P.

Biff the unclean

Free will is just a theist buzz word that tries, in vain, to make a God who is doing nothing look like that nothing is a something. Free will just describes the inaction of a God who does not exist

Santas little helper

There have probably been more threads on this topic than any other at the philosophy forum.
I seem to also recall some very long threads here at GRD.
Non existence of free will definitely undermine those religions.So from their point
of view I wouldn't say it's not overrated at all.

Christians will tell you that if you pray hard enough God will give you strength to overcome
the impulses of your nature/nurture and follow God's path.But if the choice to try and follow
God's path and to pray for help isn't yours to make then the whole concept goes down the drain.

As for what happens with people who have never come accross God's message that's
a different discussion.

Selsaral

This is so true. If we can use Christianity as an example of the type of religion you're talking about in the OP, it can be seen that nowhere in the Bible does God value free will. In fact, he opposes it at every turn. Obedience (the opposite of free will) is the overriding theme of the entire book.

The concept of free will appears to be a relatively new apologetic interjected into the theology to do exactly what Biff describes. It's a cop-out, an excuse, quickly forgotten as soon as the discussion turns to answered prayers, coercion of belief, following God's many orders, and other theological issues.

So before we can talk about whether free will is overrated or not, I'd like to first be presented with a religion that actually features free will. The abrahamic religions clearly do not.

PaperCut

Thanks for your reply.

Could you please give me some references or just online reading material for the three above points?

I'm sure I'll find them useful when I discuss free will with believers in the future.


Thanks,
P.

Kassiana

I cannot freely will to flap my arms and fly. I'm not upset about this.

I cannot freely will to light matches under water. I don't care that I can't do this.

I cannot freely choose to walk off the edge of the Empire State Building with no protective/safety equipment and float to the ground, landing lightly on my feet. So what?

I've never understood why one more limit on free will, more or less, was such a "bad" thing in so many peoples' theology. I doubt I ever will.

RaymondR

Free will is in conflict with the idea of an all powerful and all knowing god (how can any of us make a choice that would conflict with a being that knows what will happen...we are just along for the ride).

In fact the idea of an all powerful god conflicts with the idea of an all knowing god (if god knows everything that will happen, then he is powerless to change it, if he can change it, then obviously he didn't know everything).

I have been reading "Atheism - The Case Against God" by Smith. I probably did not do justice to his explanation....

So I would say that the concept of free will is overrated and is just a concept that christians use to identify something that we already have, with something that was given to us by a mythical being.
I can choose whether to go into work and shoot up the place or not. It makes no difference that some people state that this ability to choose was given by a supreme being. It is as useful as stating that gravity exists because god did it.

Plognark

The religious notion of free will is, as far as I can tell, nothing more than philosophical justification used to control and punish people through guilt/sin in spite of claiming the existance of an omnipotent and omniscient creator deity.

Selsaral

Well the entire bible is one huge example. In Genesis, just the very first part, God orders Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. Ordering someone around is the opposite of respecting free will. Then when Adam and Eve excersize their free will and eat the fruit (even though they had no idea what the consequences would be because they didn't yet know about good and evil) he punishes them and curses their descendents for all eternity. This is the opposite of respecting their free will.

Then throughout deutoronomy and Exodus he lays down law after law after law, many of them obscure and silly (don't eat shellfish, don't wear clothes with different types of fabrics etc). If he respected their free will (even more, if he valued their free will more than everything which is why he won't alleviate suffering), then he'd never order people to obey him. Every order he makes contradicts the idea that he values human being's own choices.

How can he demand people worship him and threaten horrible punishment for failure to do so, but still claim to value the free choices of people above all else? Demanding people worship him with a threat is the opposite of respecting a person's choices.

Then in Exodus the bible specifically says several times that God himself hardens Pharoah's heart specifically so that Pharoah won't excersize his own free will. It specifically says Pharoah wanted to let the jews go, but that God hardens his heart so that he will have an excuse to punish him. Even more absurdly however, he doesn't punish Pharoah. He punishes the innocent people of Egypt, including all the firstborn sons. Obviously this tale is meant to demonstrate God's power. And even more obviously God has no regard for anyone's free will throughout this entire episode.

The rest of the bible continues along these lines. He destroys Job's life, kills his family etc. Is that respecting his free will? Christians claim that the reason God won't alleviate suffering is because God values our free will too much. But in this story here's God specifically violating Job's free will IN ORDER to cause him suffering.

As I said, this whole concept of free will is completely absent in the bible. Obedience to God at all costs is the theme of the bible. The muslims have it very similarly. Doesn't the word muslim mean 'to submit'?

Further free will is a modern excuse used to try and avoid obvious problems with the theology. But it conflicts not only with the bible but with other modern apologetics. Christians claim that the reason God won't alleviate suffering (an act that would normally be extremely desirable) is because he values our free will THAT MUCH. But then these same christians believe that God grants prayers on occasion. But that's clearly interfering with our free will. If god won't interfere to alleviate suffering because it violates our free will, how can he answer prayers (many of which are pleadings to alleviate suffering)? These same christians also believe that there is a penalty of some kind (this varies wildly from christian to christian) for not believing in God. How can God respect our free will if he punishes us for using it? If a thief held a gun to your head and demanded your money or he'd kill you, and you gave him your money, would you consider your gift of money an act of free will? No, your choices were coerced and constrained with violence. That's exactly what hell is. That's exactly what every order and law in the bible is.

Hawkeye

If you mean free will within Christianity, then yes, it's overrated. Judging from the attributes Christians (or other theists) apply to God it seems He's running the show anyway, or at least should be.

Nonetheless I regard myself to have a somewhat free will. Sure, I'm handed a set of cards like gender, level of intelligence etc. and have to operate within certain rules, like the laws of physics, but have pretty free hands despite those. I can choose to jump off a roof and attempt to fly (free will) but that's against the rules.

Unfortunately I'm in no position to re-negotiate those rules with the referee during my attempt to fly, so I try to avoid making the attempt.