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Reload this Page Jesus: A myth or an Apocalyptic Prophet
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:58 AM   #271
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Further, Paul referring to the historical Jesus would do him little good in his doctrinal debates, would just put a finger on his weakness as a second-hand apostle.
This makes no sense at all. Paul declares many moral imperatives. But rather than leaning on the teachings of Jesus for his authority, he points to the Old Testament for it.

Is it common behavior for cult members to ignore the teachings of their recently deceased founders who they consider divine?
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:06 AM   #272
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Why should historians expect letters from Jesus if it's likely he was illiterate?
The Gospels record him writing on the ground, though they do not say what it was he was writing. So what do you base the liklihood that he was illiterate upon?
The Jesus stories portray Jesus as a God so the author may have tried to establish in his story that Jesus had no need to be schooled, his abilty to read and write or his knowledge is due to his divinity.
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:27 AM   #273
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The word in Mark = logon.
The Word in the prologue to John = logos.

Two quite different things.
Yes, one's nominative and the other accusative. Quite different.


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This is something I'm going to have to look into, with my non-existent understanding of Greek. For now, I'll just quote the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The term Logos is found only in the Johannine writings.--"Logos"
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:54 AM   #274
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Why should historians expect letters from Jesus if it's likely he was illiterate?
The Gospels record him writing on the ground, though they do not say what it was he was writing. So what do you base the liklihood that he was illiterate upon?
Even if he was litterate, why should we expect a 2000 y.o. crack pot to have written letters? There's plenty of crackpots today and they don't all write letters.

Historians who say Jesus was a failed apocalyptic preacher might be wrong; trying to reconstruct history does not lead to certainties. But they have sufficient historical evidence to reach that conclusion. Like I said, there's no reason to assume we should have more or better evidence than what we have.

If indeed the JM hypothesis explains the data better, then where are all the historians to defend that hypothesis? I'm not sure how one can explain the complete lack of interest historians give to the hypothesis without entering into a conspiracy theory zone.
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:03 AM   #275
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Yes, one's nominative and the other accusative. Quite different.
This is something I'm going to have to look into, with my non-existent understanding of Greek. For now, I'll just quote the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The term Logos is found only in the Johannine writings.--"Logos"
Somebody else's opinion is no substitute for your own.1


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1 This may be re-used, but please attribute it to moi!
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:11 AM   #276
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...

If indeed the JM hypothesis explains the data better, then where are all the historians to defend that hypothesis? I'm not sure how one can explain the complete lack of interest historians give to the hypothesis without entering into a conspiracy theory zone.
Wait for The Jesus Project
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:15 AM   #277
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Somebody else's opinion is no substitute for your own.1
It is indeed my opinion, and I am demonstrating that it is shared by people far better informed than me. Here's more:
The complete discourse is built around v. 11, in which the hiddenness and revelation of the kingdom of God are the central focus. All five 'parables' to some extent illustrate the hiddenness and revelation of the kingdom of God. First there is the logos motif, which occurs nine times in the speech. It has the meaning of 'message' and refers to the preaching of the gospel (of the Kingdom of God). The teaching of Jesus (v. 3) is therefore aptly summarized in v. 33 as elalai autois ton logon. It is this teaching, his message of the kingdom of God, which is both hidden and revealed.--"Meaning and Reference in Mark 4". In Speaking of Jesus: Essays on Biblical Language, Gospel Narrative, and the Historical Jesus / W. S. Vorster, J. Eugene Botha (BRILL, 1999), p. 179.
Emphasis added.
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:21 AM   #278
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Yes, one's nominative and the other accusative. Quite different.


spin
This is something I'm going to have to look into, with my non-existent understanding of Greek. For now, I'll just quote the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The term Logos is found only in the Johannine writings.--"Logos"

Meaning with respect to all the books of the NT, only the Johanine writings used Logos the Word as the Son of God of the Jews.

Philo, a contemporary of the supposed Jesus, and other philosophers before Philo used the Logos.

This is Philo on the Logos
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...And even if there be not as yet anyone who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first born Logos, the eldest of the angels, as the great archangel of many names, for he is called the Authority, and the name of God, and the Logos, and man according to God's image and he who sees Israel.
It seems the Jesus of the Johanine Gospel may be straight out of Philo.
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:47 AM   #279
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Somebody else's opinion is no substitute for your own.1
It is indeed my opinion, and I am demonstrating that it is shared by people far better informed than me. Here's more:
The complete discourse is built around v. 11, in which the hiddenness and revelation of the kingdom of God are the central focus. All five 'parables' to some extent illustrate the hiddenness and revelation of the kingdom of God. First there is the logos motif, which occurs nine times in the speech. It has the meaning of 'message' and refers to the preaching of the gospel (of the Kingdom of God). The teaching of Jesus (v. 3) is therefore aptly summarized in v. 33 as elalai autois ton logon. It is this teaching, his message of the kingdom of God, which is both hidden and revealed.--"Meaning and Reference in Mark 4". In Speaking of Jesus: Essays on Biblical Language, Gospel Narrative, and the Historical Jesus / W. S. Vorster, J. Eugene Botha (BRILL, 1999), p. 179.
Emphasis added.
You can find lots of other people's opinions. That won't help you at all. You will have to form your own opinion from the data at some stage or else you'll only believe.


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Old 10-29-2008, 09:52 AM   #280
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You can find lots of other people's opinions. That won't help you at all. You will have to form your own opinion from the data at some stage or else you'll only believe.
The radical separation of believing and knowing is a hallmark of the Kantian. Both believing and knowing are kinds of thinking. Thinking can certainly be faulty, but it can also be in complete conformity with Truth.
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