Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 04-13-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Can anyone explain this?

I can't quite figure out from the context what O'Donnell is trying to say. I can only guess at this point that he and I probably have different ideas about what it means to be quintessentially western.

No Robots · 04-13-2009, 03:49 PM

The theologians had simply taken on a new metaphysical ballast that was too heavy for them, as they lurched anew into the Apollinarian, Nestorian and Monophysite controversies. We can perhaps understand how easy it was for Mohammed to blow the whistle on the whole confusing game, with the simple, uncompromising assertion that God is One.—Theodosius: the empire at bay (or via: amazon.co.uk) / Stephen Williams and Gerard Friell, p. 50.

Clivedurdle · 04-13-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

The theologians had simply taken on a new metaphysical ballast that was too heavy for them, as they lurched anew into the Apollinarian, Nestorian and Monophysite controversies. We can perhaps understand how easy it was for Mohammed to blow the whistle on the whole confusing game, with the simple, uncompromising assertion that God is One.—Theodosius: the empire at bay (or via: amazon.co.uk) / Stephen Williams and Gerard Friell, p. 50.

But the catholic western theologians were Chalcedonian - fully God fully man - the dual nature. The monophysites - God is one nature were the Eastern lot - so Islam may be a monophysite xian cult. (Although what were the allegedly Barbarian Arians?)

No Robots · 04-13-2009, 10:28 PM

By the monk Bahira, in the convent at Bozrah, Mohammed was taught the tenets of the Nestorians; from them the young Arab learned the story of their persecutions. It was these interviews which engendered in him a hatred of the idolatrous practices of the Eastern Church, and indeed of all idolatry; that taught him, in his wonderful career, never to speak of Jesus as the Son of God, but always as "Jesus, the son of Mary."--Draper

No Robots · 04-13-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

(Although what were the allegedly Barbarian Arians?)

The Arians were Christians who denied that Christ was fully divine. The leading Arians were originally bishops. One of the leading Arian bishops was Eusebius of Nicomedia. Eusebius consecrated Ulfila, who brought Arian Christianity to the Visigoths. From there it spread to other Germans like the Ostrogoths, Vandals and Lombards. The Franks adopted Trinitarianism.

Clivedurdle · 04-13-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

By the monk Bahira, in the convent at Bozrah, Mohammed was taught the tenets of the Nestorians; from them the young Arab learned the story of their persecutions. It was these interviews which engendered in him a hatred of the idolatrous practices of the Eastern Church, and indeed of all idolatry; that taught him, in his wonderful career, never to speak of Jesus as the Son of God, but always as "Jesus, the son of Mary."--Draper

Agreed

Quote:

In the paganization of religion, now in all directions taking place, it became the interest of every bishop to procure an adoption of the ideas which, time out of mind, had been current in the community under his charge. The Egyptians had already thus forced on the Church their peculiar Trinitarian views; and now they were resolved that, under the form of the adoration of the Virgin Mary, the worship of Isis should be restored.

Egyptian Doctrines.
It so happened that Nestor, the Bishop of Antioch, who entertained the philosophical views of Theodore of Mopsuestia, had been called by the Emperor Theodosius the Younger to the Episcopate of Constantinople (A. D. 427). Nestor rejected the base popular anthropomorphism, looking upon it as little better than blasphemous, and pictured to himself an awful eternal Divinity, who pervaded the universe, and had none of the aspects or attributes of man. Nestor was deeply imbued with the doctrines of Aristotle, and attempted to coordinate them with what he considered to be orthodox Christian tenets. Between him and Cyril, the Bishop or Patriarch of Alexandria, a quarrel accordingly arose. Cyril represented the paganizing, Nestor the philosophizing party of the Church. This was that Cyril who had murdered Hypatia. Cyril was determined that the worship of the Virgin as the Mother of God should be recognized, Nestor was determined that it should not. In a sermon delivered in the metropolitan church at Constantinople, he vindicated the attributes of the Eternal, the Almighty God. "And can this God have a mother?" he exclaimed. In other sermons and writings, he set forth with more precision his ideas that the Virgin should be considered not as the Mother of God, but as the mother of the human portion of Christ, that portion being as essentially distinct from the divine as is a temple from its contained deity.

But what is quintessentially Western about Nestor? The rational perspective?

mountainman · 04-14-2009, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

The Arians were Christians who denied that Christ was fully divine.

This is an assertion of the "christian historians"
and is without any corroborating evidence.
The Arians could have been from the Hellenistic priesthood.
The priesthood which was prohibited to practice by Constantine c.324 CE.

Quote:

The leading Arians were originally bishops.

Arius of Alexandria was a priest and not a bishop.

Quote:

"that most quintessentially western creation, Islam"

Followers of the one true book published by a supreme military commander.
The state of coexistence between authoritarian followers and authoritarian leaders.
We believe because it is written in the One True Blue Bookie Bookie!
Here bookie bookie. There bookie bookie.
Everywhere a One True Bookie Bookie.
Utter and complete and total bullshit.

Religion is a tool of military supremacists.
The Avesta, the Bible and the Koran are by-products of epochs
of supreme military commanders who wanted to control
by means of official "canonised" propaganda from the top down.

There is nothing grass roots about any book religion.
The books exploited the ancient technology.
They were statements of technology by military supremacists
seeking centralised state autocratic control of the masses.

Clivedurdle · 04-14-2009, 03:34 PM

So Constantine is of the West?

mountainman · 04-14-2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

So Constantine is of the West?

Rose to power in "Constantius Chlorus' Northwest".
The allegiance in Briton of pirates and Germanic chieftans
Mercenary Aryan/Germanic invasion of Rome then Hellenism.
Constantine may have had some bad experiences while
he was held "hostage" in the court of Diocletian until c.304 CE.
He was the grandson of a goatherder from the Danube lands.

Paraphrasing Aurelius Victor ...

He was good for 10 years (305 -315)
He was a brigand for 10 years (315 - 325)
He was out of control for 10 years (325-337)

Paraphrasing Suetonius...

Absolute power corrupted the 12 Caesars

Quoting Lord Acton.....

And remember,
where you have a concentration of power
in a few hands, all too frequently
men with the mentality of gangsters get control.
History has proven that.
All power corrupts;
absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Clivedurdle · 04-14-2009, 04:20 PM

At Marathon, the dispute was between the priesthood of all believers proto democratic Greeks and the hierarchical priest ridden ritual ridden east.

These Eastern ideas were imported into the catholic church with its smells and bells but confusingly polytheistic three gods and two christs - the Persians were one god folk!

Is the west quintesentially polytheistic, anti establishment? But these are characteristics of pre city folk.

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04-13-2009, 03:49 PM	#12
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	The theologians had simply taken on a new metaphysical ballast that was too heavy for them, as they lurched anew into the Apollinarian, Nestorian and Monophysite controversies. We can perhaps understand how easy it was for Mohammed to blow the whistle on the whole confusing game, with the simple, uncompromising assertion that God is One.—Theodosius: the empire at bay (or via: amazon.co.uk) / Stephen Williams and Gerard Friell, p. 50.

04-13-2009, 10:28 PM	#14
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	By the monk Bahira, in the convent at Bozrah, Mohammed was taught the tenets of the Nestorians; from them the young Arab learned the story of their persecutions. It was these interviews which engendered in him a hatred of the idolatrous practices of the Eastern Church, and indeed of all idolatry; that taught him, in his wonderful career, never to speak of Jesus as the Son of God, but always as "Jesus, the son of Mary."--Draper

04-14-2009, 03:34 PM	#18
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	So Constantine is of the West?

04-14-2009, 04:20 PM	#20
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	At Marathon, the dispute was between the priesthood of all believers proto democratic Greeks and the hierarchical priest ridden ritual ridden east. These Eastern ideas were imported into the catholic church with its smells and bells but confusingly polytheistic three gods and two christs - the Persians were one god folk! Is the west quintesentially polytheistic, anti establishment? But these are characteristics of pre city folk.

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