meforevidence

actually, the older word for Sor is Zara which is Assyrian. Furthermore, even if it is a Greek attempt, they still seperated the two places. The Greek attempt used two seperate words for both places. If you go to the Interlinear Greek, you will find that they are not the same word. You are right however that many translations have messed up the original. I would copy and paste both words for you if this site would allow it.

meforevidence

Instead of arguing about "the island" being used in the Greek text, look it up for yourself. Anyone of you can go to this site and look for yourself. http://septuagint-interlinear-greek-...m/downbook.htm

meforevidence

Now Sauron, you are the one ignoring the facts. Sor is not the island but Tyre is. Today the island is called Sor but it was the city on the mainland and completely seperate from the "island" of Tyre. When both the Septuagint and later the Book of Judith were written two seperate Greek words are given.

spin

Unfortunately the dating here is not correct. The Letter of Aristeas might claim that the Hebrew texts were translated circa 250 BCE (earlier actually), but Aristeas doesn't know what it's talking about, making a number of insuperable errors. Most scholars think the work was written early in the 1st c. BCE and that it was only dealing with the torah or one of its books.

The evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls is that there was a Hebrew Vorlage to the LXX and there were also a few parts of the LXX torah found in the corpus.

There is nothing therefore to suggest the dates given by meforevidence.

(Oh and it is correct that there are two forms of the name Tyre in the LXX. There is the name used in Greek Turos used for CR (Tyre) and there is a transliteration of the Hebrew used in Ezekiel, CWR (literally "rock"), sor (Ezra has swr). Ezekiel is using etymology to talk about the island being a rock, then uses a synonym in 26:14, "I will make you a bare rock {SL(} = "crag, cliff" and BDB gives this as a synonym of CWR. Certainly it doesn't imply that Ezekiel was talking about a flat place.)

Bye, bye. :wave:


spin

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

They wouldn't have missed such an earthquake! But they might not have thought to check on a bare rock that used to be the island of Tyre, afterwards.

I guess I should have made the irony more obvious. Do you really think I was holding that the Internet is infallible?! This was even in a comment disputing what one person posted, via something another person posted on the Willy Wooly Web.

How come and why not? Like with the map that was posted with the island of Hercules! If Arrian & co. were not so very accurate, that would also explain why MSN Encarta's account disagrees with theirs. Do you believe the WWW is infallible? If an article agrees with your view, I mean.

Well, as I have said before, I can't prove it, but this is indeed evidence that it might have sunk, as is a large (now) sunken area next-door the erstwhile island.

Yes, I wasn't saying it was necessarily part of Tyre.

Welcome to the discussion! That's interesting, I would like to know more, indeed, the words are different in the Septuagint, and that might indicate something.

But not much is known about the creation of the Septuagint. Not much at all…

Well, I agree, and "they" will do this, as opposed to "he" as in Neb.

Regards,
Lee

noah

Regarding "phonic" (and other issues) Sauron is correct. It is from the Greek Gk.:

1683, "science of sound," from Gk. phone "sound" (see fame).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=phonics

And from the New Shorter Oxford 1993:

[f. Gk phone] of or pertaining to sound

Regarding the terms Phoenician Sor and Tyre:

Phoenician, what's in a name?

It is not certain what the Phoenicians called themselves in their own language; it appears to have been Kena'ani (Akkadian: Kinahna), "Canaanites." In Hebrew the word kena'ani has the secondary meaning of "merchant," a term that well characterizes the Phoenicians.

The Greeks gave the new appellation Phoenicians to those Canaanites who lived on the seacoast and traded with them. Phoenicia is the Greek work for "purple". The most probable reason for giving this name is the famous Tyrian purple cloth which the Phoenicians manufactured and sold to the rich of the ancient world.

The name 'Phoenicians,' was not what the Phoenicians called themselves but what the Greeks called them; the word means dark red in Greek and refers to the royal Tyrian purple dye that Phoenicians extracted from murex shells to dye cloth with and sold to the rich of the ancient world. The name appears in Psalm 45:14, in the phrase bat melek Ponnima (daughter of the king of the Phoenicians), which parallels bat Sor (daughter of Tyre) of verse 13. The same term, Ponnim (meaning the Phoenician language), appears in a comedy called Poenulus, by the Roman playwright T. Maccius Plautus (died 184 B.C.). The Latin poenus (noun) and punicus (adjective), as well as Greek phoinikos, refer to the term Phoenician.

http://phoenicia.org/noframe.html

From the Catholic Encyclopedia regrarding Tyre:

Tyre

(TYRUS.)

Melchite archdiocese and Maronite diocese. The city is called in Hebrew, Zor, and in Arabic, Sour, from two words meaning rock.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15109a.htm

Tyre clearly refers to the island:

It was built on an island just off the mainland, but the accumulation of sand around a mole built by Alexander the Great to facilitate his siege of the city (333–332 B.C.) has formed a causeway more than .5 mi (.8 km) wide.

http://www.answers.com/Tyre

That's why it's called a rock in the bible

About Sor:

The word for the city of Tyre, sor, means a hard rock or pebble

http://www.biblequery.org/ezek.htm

You wouldn't call the mainland a rock or a pebble

Regarding "Zara", it is of both Hebrew and Arab origin and appears to mean "golden":

“Zarathustra� seems to be a compound of “Zara� meaning “golden� because it is the bright quality of the sun (surya) and “Ushtra�, possibly adopted from Babylon (Ishtar) meaning star. To translate it as meaning “having many camels�, (ustra, camel) seems unlikely despite Zoroaster’s herdsmen community, unless the whole is meant to be a pun. So Zarathrustra is a Golden Star, or possibly, if Zara simply means sun, the Star of the Sun, or if Zara means spirit or deity, God of the stars or heavens. Mithras was the sun as justice, but Ahuramazda was the sun beyond the sun—the God of the Heavens—the power behind the Cosmos who wore heaven as his “massy cloke�. The Star of the Sun is the morning star that heralds the rising of the sun. Thus Zoroaster is the herald or prophet of God whether as Mithras or Ahuramazda.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0260IranGods.html

or:

The name origin and meaning of Zara
Name: Zara
Gender: (Female)
Origin: Hebrew, Arabic
Meaning: Dawn, princess

http://123-baby-names.com/origin_meaning_zara.html

or "to sow seed"

Yahweh told Hosea to symbolically name Israel, Jezreel, meaning, "El sows." This word can also be translated, "God's seed." The root words for Jezreel are, "zara," meaning to sow seed, and "El," meaning God. Therefore, Jezreel can be interpreted to mean: "Seed belonging to, and sown by, Yahweh

http://www.shalomandjoy.com/articles...otherhood.html

The Greeks adopted the Phoenician alphabet and changed in a number of ways. But the Phoenicians did not Create the Greek alphabet,unless you are propared to argue that "adoption of" means "created by":

Greek


Quick Facts

Type C&V Alphabetic
Family Proto-Sinaitic
Location Mediterranean
Time 800 BCE to Present

The Greeks were the first Europeans to learn to write with an alphabet, and from them writing was brought to the rest of Europe, eventually leading down to all modern European alphabets.

From the shape of the letters, it is clear that the Greeks adopted the alphabet the Phoenician script, mostly like during the late 9th century BCE. In fact, Greek historian Herotodus (5th century BCE) called the Greek letters "phoinikeia grammata" (φοινικήια γÏ?άμματα), which means Phoenician letters. (You can see the comparision chart at the Proto-Sinaitic page.) Unlike Greek, the Phoenician alphabet only had letters for consonants. When the Greeks adopted the alphabet, they found letters representing sounds not found in Greek. Instead of throwing them away, they modified the extraneous letters to represent vowels. For example, the Phoenician letter 'aleph (which stood for a glottal stop) became the Greek letter alpha (which stands for [a] sound).

http://www.ancientscripts.com/greek.html

From the same site, a comparison of the two alphabets :

Here is a comparison between Proto-Sinaitic, Phoenician, and Greek alphabets from the same site:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/protosinaitic.html

In any case, the Phoenician language/alphabet(s) derives from Proto-Sinaitic which is Egyptian, not Phoenician, in origin:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/protosinaitic.html

Your mention of Cadmus is interesting. I thought Christians had no time for Greek mythology.

noah

----They wouldn't have missed such an earthquake! But they might not have thought to check on a bare rock that used to be the island of Tyre, afterwards.

Lee, do you think anyone would have missed an island the size of Tyre going underwater? It is and was on maps of the region. People knew about it. It was and is very well known.

Again, you have to prove the island went down. Guesswork and "maybe" don't count. It's not credible, serious, academic or scholarly.
There are no such works out there Lee, that prove the island sank. So you are confined to "gueswork" and "maybe" in defence of your god's prophecy, a god who supposedly doesn't sow confusion and whose word is inerrant.
He's already failed these tests, and you know it.

Aren't you the least bit troubled that your defence of this "porphecy"is based on guesswork and "maybe"?

Lee, I challenge you to bring one solid piece of evidence to this discussion that proves Tyre went underwater unnoticed by anyone on the mainland or the surrounding area(s).

Sauron

Unlikely, but let's see your evidence. Please make sure it's not another Greek myth.

There is no evidence for that. The presence of variant spellings is a well-known fact.

It doesn't matter if they are the same or not in interlinear Greek. The interlinear Greek is not the final answer, since we know that there were numerous spelling mistakes and variations in the Septuagint (interlinear Greek). Quite frankly, you seem to think that God penned the interlinear Greek or something. The point is that the original Septuagint Greek can have two variant spellings, just like English has - which I showed you, above. The Septuagint had so many problems that (as I mentioned) Origen spent lots of time trying to fix the variant readings in it.

It's the same word - suffering under the problem of 70 different scribes translating over a century's worth of time.

No. Tyre was the island, and the name included island as well as mainland. One word, spelled two different ways.

By that logic, Tyre and Tyrus must be 2 different places as well, since they're not spelled the same. I guess I need to beat you over the head with Britannica again:

In the 3rd century AD Origen attempted to clear up copyists' errors that had crept into the text of the Septuagint, which by then varied widely from copy to copy. Other scholars also consulted the Hebrew text in order to make the Septuagint text more accurate.

Sauron

Except that Tyre was a major trading center. If it went missing, someone would have noticed. You've already been corrected on that point.

No, you just just try to explain why Arrian was supposedly a sycophant to Alexander - that was your original claim, which backfired in your face when you used the Amazon quote.

Because the debate has destroyed your position. Linking to it only shows how clueless you are.

Wrong. The existence of a faultline is not proof of sinking.

But guess what? When the island of Hercules sank, people noticed it and recorded that fact. But you want us to believe that Tyre could sink and nobody notice. Even though Tyre was much larger, more important, wealthier, politically more powerful.

Yah, yah, just playing games.....

Uh, wrong. But then again, you were just using that as a jumping off point to your next pointless question, right?

Wrong.

andrewcriddle

I agree that the complete Septuagint was 1st c BCE but there are fragmentary papyri for the Septuagint of the Torah usually dated paleographically to the 2nd century BCE.

A papyrus of Deuteronomy Rahls number 957 and a papyrus of Leviticus Rahls number 801.

Andrew Criddle