andy_d

Of course it's hocus-pocus. Beating addiction is a mind game.

It's about changing habits, attitudes, ways of relating to people, etc. The mind plays games with us, why shouldn't we turn the tables and play games back? It works.

I think the concept of a Higher Power has been left deliberately vague. People can use whatever they're comfortable with. I think that's fine if it works. I'm more interested in seeing someone beat their addiction than resolve the kind of nifty philosophical issues we discuss on this website.

Addicts are fragile. I think we can cut them some slack and allow them to use crutches. Just as long as they are given enough strength to discard those crutches when they've healed enough.

greyline

This was the basis for my question: does AA work? Because AA's own stats show that it doesn't.

This sounds like a good idea. But again, it's not AA, which teaches that you need the crutches for the rest of your life because you are, and always will be, powerless in the face of the demon drug.

Heurismus

Deacon Doubtmonger's GOD=Group of Drunks. I've just had a Euclidian moment there; is the man on to something?

Come back on this one please! Or I'll post as new thread!

Group of Drunks, its all starting to make sense now. That's why he couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery! And why good old Ben Johnson told us that ale was a sign of God's love.

Alcohol has always been used by some more extreme practitioners as a 'pathway' to god, and then the other group of extreme practiotioners came along and dried them out. Flux and flow, flux and flow! And as to the Salvation Army...!

:notworthy

brighid

Perhaps you aren't the child of an alcoholic or drug addict, and I can personally attest that alcoholism has many victims and addiction is not such a simple thing that is can be boiled down to mere "choice."

When your parent is nice and loving while sober, but an abusive ass when drunk with a penchant for viscious and cruel behavior, particularly beating his/her children ... you become a victim of alcoholism.

When you watch as a loved one spirals down the unavoidable road of addiction, first destroying himself physically and mentally, then destroying his future, and later harming everyone he comes in contact with ... you understand that addiction has many victims, far too many who are unwitting victims of the diabolical control of addiction takes over many people.

When you see you sister huddled in a fetal position, rocking back and forth, sweating, shivering, nearly convulsing, foaming at the mouth and in utter agony as she joneses for another heroin fix and the pain and mental anquish becomes so overwhelming she nearly goes insane in front of you ... you understand that addiction is not a simple choice and that the victims are many ... including the unborn child she aborted so it would not be born deformed because of her heroin use ...

I have seen the scourge of alcoholism and drug addiction within my own family and your bold assertation that you are convinced it is a choice and there are no victims is without merit. Your technical research on the Internet or in the library is useless without real life interaction with those who have suffered from addictions and from the family members who have witnessed the struggles and ravages of addiction ...

It might be a choice in the beginning, if one is aware of these things, but eventually the simplicity of that original choice gets lost in the biochemical soup that has been forever altered by the abuse of alcohol and drugs. There is also a growing body of evidence that genes influence addictive behavior, as well as environment.

I am not particularly fond of AA, but if it helps some people deal with the psychological temptations of addiction so be it.

Control and choice is part of the equation, but to boil addiction down to such simplistic terms as choice is, imo and experience, is way off base.

Brighid

Lavrenty Beria

I'm a self-identified member of A.A. I attend two meetings a week. I've been abstinent from alcohol since March 1979. In fact I was abstinent from all mind-altering substances between March 1979 through July 1987, when I began to smoke marijuana again. After approximately 18 months of over indulgence, I returned to complete abstinence in February 1989.

In my opinion, the "theology" of A.A. is very childish. Additionally, it tends to ignore the fact that it began in a post New Deal American context. One could easily give one's life over to God in a nation with a developed social system. In other words, if A.A. were founded by two Polish Jews during the mid1930s, I doubt that it would've survived.

I continue to attend A.A. meetings primarily because I've developed social bonds with many of the other members. Additionally, I do believe that by attending weekly meetings, by making it part of my rountine, that I will continue to remain abstinent. When I returned to smoking pot in 1987, I hadn't been to an A.A. meeting for over six years.

I suggest that those interested view www.aadeprogramming.com

RED DAVE

I've been a member of AA, and sober, for almost 14 years, and I think I can confidently say that if it weren't for AA I'd be dead or, at least, brain dead.

The "spiritual" program of AA is tainted with all kinds of religious bullshit, which people are free to ignore or follow to the letter. What is at the heart of the AA program, at least as far as I'm concerned, is the following (not an exhaustive list):

1. Alcoholism is a disease. There are profound differences in the brain chemistry of alcoholics and nonalcoholics. Alcoholism is akin to schizophrenia.

2. In addition to the above, alcoholics have an abnormal reaction to alcohol: it makes us feel sane! The raving cacaphony in my mind was stilled when I drank. This is not true of nonalcohlics.

3. Once an alcoholic starts to drink, for a whole host of reasons, including a physical craving, we have a physical compulsion to continue to drink.

4. The condition of alcohol doesn't go away any more than the condition of schizophrenia.

5. Presence at AA meetings, and following some version of the program of AA, keeps about 10% of the alcoholics in the US sober.

6. Many alcoholics in urban areas are atheists or agnostics. In New York, nonbelief is probably as common as belief, and there are many atheist meetings.

7. The famous 12 steps are a system of personal, psychological development that helps recovering drunks deal with the overwhelming feelings of guilt that plague us, plus the hash that most of us have made of our lives.

Anyone who wants to discuss this in terms of their own problem, please send me a pm.

RED DAVE

greyline

This is quite clearly not the point I was making. A child can certainly be the victim of his parent's bad behaviour, yes.



It is totally, 100% avoidable. No one puts a gun to anyone's head to force them to start drinking, to have the first hit, or to lift the glass or the needle each and every time an addict performs this act.



How could you know what I've witnessed?



This is actually highly debatable.

greyline

This is simply not true - there are no "profound" differences, although the AA line is that it's part of your genetic makeup. There's no proof of this.

Alcoholism is a "disease" so that medical insurance will pay for treatment. It bears no resemblance to any other kind of disease. Does a "shopaholic" have a disease, too? Does a food-addicted obese person have a disease?


While this is no doubt true of some alcoholics, it's not true of all. And many people with raving cacophonies don't resort to alcohol.


This is a handy way of saying it, and a handy way to absolve yourself of responsibility, but it's not literally true.


Actually it does: when you stop drinking and take total responsibility for your actions.


Compared to 20-30% of addicts who stop drinking without any treatment at all. Hmm.

RED DAVE

From greyline:The Disease Concept of Alcoholism

I can't comment, really, on people with other addictions. I want to say this. The disease concept of alcohol was devised long before medical insurance covered rehabs, etc. This remark is cute but heartless.

I'm sure it's not true of all alcoholics. But it seems to be true of most us. And yes, many people with the screemie-meemies in their brains don't drink. Some of them aren't alcohoics.

Again, cute but wrong and heartless. What you are doing is making will power into an absolute. It isn't. Will is a function of the brain, and if that portion of the brain the controls will in a certain area is itself damaged, there will be a problem with will power in that area.


This is a profoundly religios statement: an assertion of truth in the absence of facts but in the presence of faith.

[/QUOTE]Compared to 20-30% of addicts who stop drinking without any treatment at all. Hmm.[/QUOTE]


All true, but what does that have to do with several million alcoholics who stay sober in AA?

Frankly, greyline, your attitude reminds me of some 17-year-old atheist, who's read a book or two, and thinks they know everything about religion. I mean, why the hostility towards AA?

RED DAVE

RED DAVE

From greyline:The Disease Concept of Alcoholism

I can't comment, really, on people with other addictions. I want to say this. The disease concept of alcohol was devised long before medical insurance covered rehabs, etc. This remark is cute but heartless.

I'm sure it's not true of all alcoholics. But it seems to be true of most us. And yes, many people with the screemie-meemies in their brains don't drink. Some of them aren't alcohoics.

Again, cute but wrong and heartless. What you are doing is making will power into an absolute. It isn't. Will is a function of the brain, and if that portion of the brain the controls will in a certain area is itself damaged, there will be a problem with will power in that area.


This is a profoundly religios statement: an assertion of truth in the absence of facts but in the presence of faith.

[/QUOTE]Compared to 20-30% of addicts who stop drinking without any treatment at all. Hmm.[/QUOTE]


All true, but what does that have to do with several million alcoholics who stay sober in AA?

Frankly, greyline, your attitude reminds me of some 17-year-old atheist, who's read a book or two, and thinks they know everything about religion. I mean, why the hostility towards AA?

RED DAVE