skepticdude

No, but when it is Christian historians, and the subject is the most foundational event in Christian history, yes. The silence screams.

skepticdude

A dirt devil?

dog-on

And what were angels? :Cheeky:

Jeffrey Gibson

But not all αγγελοι -- and especially the one referred to in Mk. 1:1, i.e., the messenger spoken of in Malichi -- are "angels".

See for instance the ἄγγελος sent by God in Hg 1:13; 1 Esdr 1:48f; also Theognis 1, 769 (where poets are described as being Μουσέων ἄγγελος) Epict. 3, 22, 23; 38; Ael. Aristid. 37 K.; Maximus Tyr. 11, 9c (in refernce to Plato as the one who brings us information about God; Oenomaus in Euseb., Pr. Ev. 5, 20, 3; 5 where Carnus the soothsayer is ἄγγ. of the gods.

And despite what Clive seems to think, the (מלאך in Exodus 23:20 is not an angel but Yahweh himself

Quote:

The primary reference of Exod 23:20–33 is not the collection of laws preceding it, but the broader frame into which those laws too are set, a frame suggested also by the verses (20:22–23) that have been placed immediately before the laws themselves. Here, as there, the emphasis is upon Yahweh, whose commands and guiding instruction the laws are: Yahweh, who is and will be present with the people who enter covenant with him; Yahweh, who will guide his people and provide for them and protect them; Yahweh, who will expect, because he has every right to do so, the undiluted loyalty of the people he has “brought out,” the people who are, in response, about to commit themselves to his service. It is hardly a coincidence that virtually the first (20:23) and last (23:32–33) words of the present sequence of the Book of the Covenant are Yahweh’s insistence upon the absolute loyalty of his own people, in content and effect summary restatements of the first two of the ten commandments. Thus the reference to the messenger whom Yahweh is to send out, here as everywhere in the OT a reference to an extension of Yahweh’s own person and Presence, is in fact a restatement of the promise and proof of Presence motif that dominates the narrative of Exod 1–20. The “attendant” or “messenger” (מלאך) will perform the guiding, protecting, instructing, interposing functions that Yahweh’s pillars of cloud and fire and Yahweh’s attendant and providing Presence have performed earlier in the exodus narrative. OT Old Testament Durham, J. I. (2002). Vol. 3: Word Biblical Commentary : Exodus. Word Biblical Commentary (335). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

(For more on this, see North [CBQ 29 [1967] 429–32]).


Jeffrey

Clivedurdle

OK, if the Angel/messenger here is yhwh, who is "I"?

Jeffrey Gibson

If you are really interested in knowing, see the article "ANGEL I מלאך" in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk) as well as my brief article on these entities in the Encyclopedia of the Historical Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Jeffrey

dog-on

Thanks, Jeffrey!

Clivedurdle

But wiki states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Jeffrey Gibson

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Leaving aside the matter of why you think Wiki is an authority in this regard AND the question of why are you looking up in an English "dictionary" the meaning of an English word when you should be consulting a Greek Lexicon for the meaning of the Greek word ἄγγελος, the issue is not what "angels", let alone that the meaning of the English word "angels" is generally "spiritual beings", but what the Greek word ἄγγελος means in Mk 1:1 (and Mal 3:1). And it is assuredly "human messenger.


Jeffrey

show_no_mercy

"Angel" is not an English word. It's a Greek word with various meanings, so you should look it up in some sort of Greek dictionary (the wiktionary I linked to is somewhat good).

Also Strong's on the Greek word "angel". Like I wrote in an earlier post, does evangelist have anything to do with supernatural beings?

Look at Nahum 1:15

The LXX version of this (2:1) has the word ευαγγελισθητω, pronounced eva[n]ggelistheeto.