quasi-sapien

only division and conflict? Well, we can hardly look to you for an unbiased viewpoint, any more than we can from a believer.

Yahzi

If the Shroud is an x-ray image, then how could there be features on the coin?

If you x-ray something, metal objects come out as solid black. They block all of the x-rays. You cannot x-ray a penny and see Lincoln's face on it. Don't take my word for it, ask your dentist.

Now, if you did use strong enough x-rays to reveal the features on the coin... any cloth not protected by metal would burst into flame and be destroyed.

Please explain this contradiction: how could x-rays leave the surface images of coins?

What is wrong with believing in something that isn't true?

Huon

http://www.csicop.org/articles/19990...oud/index.html

signaled by MortalWombat in the past.

Recent Shroud Claims Based on Earlier, Scientifically Discredited Data

AMHERST, N.Y.--New claims that pollen grains on the Shroud of Turin link it to pre-eighth-century Jerusalem were made August 2 1999 by researchers at the International Botanical Congress in St. Louis. In fact, however, the claims are based on earlier, scientifically discredited data. Here is a brief review of some of the claims that were reported uncritically by the Associated Press and other media sources.


POLLENS. It was reported that pollens on the shroud proved it came from Palestine, but the source for the pollens was a freelance criminologist, Max Frei, who once pronounced the forged "Hitler Diaries" genuine. Frei's tape-lifted samples from the Shroud were controversial from the outset since similar samples taken by the Shroud of Turin Research Project in 1978 had comparatively few pollens. As it turned out, after Frei's tapes were examined following his death in 1983, they also had very few pollens--except for a particular one that bore a suspicious cluster on the "lead" (or end), rather than on the portion that had been applied to the shroud. (See Skeptical Inquirer magazine, Summer 1994 pp. 379-385.)

FLORAL IMAGES. Accompanying the unscientific pollen evidence were claims that faint plant images have been "tentatively" identified on the shroud. These follow previous "discoveries" of "Roman coins" over the eyes and even Latin and Greek words, such as "Jesus" and "Nazareth," that some researchers see-Rorschach-like-in the shroud's mottled stains. The floral images were reported by a psychiatrist who has taken up image analysis and made other discredited claims about the shroud image.

BLOOD. The Associated Press reported claims that the shroud bears type AB blood stains. Perhaps this erroneous information has its origin in other fake shrouds of Jesus, since the Shroud of Turin's stains are not only suspiciously red (unlike genuine blood that blackens with age) but they failed batteries of tests by internationally known forensic experts. The "blood" has been definitively proved to be composed of red ocher and vermilion tempera paint.

OVIEDO CLOTH. Uncritical reportage suggested the Shroud of Turin gained credibility by being linked to another notorious cloth, the Sudarium of Oviedo, which some believe was the "napkin" that covered Jesus' face. Unfortunately like other "relics" of Jesus-some 40 shrouds, vials of his blood and tears, and other products of medieval relic-mongering-the Oviedo cloth is of questionable provenance. It has no historical record prior to the eighth century and, in contrast to the shroud, lacks a facial image. The supposed matching of bloodstains on the Turin and Oviedo cloths is but another exercise in wishful thinking. As to the alleged matchup of pollens, once again the evidence comes from the questionable tapes of Max Frei.

DATING. The assertion that blood and pollen matching prove the Shroud of Turin dates to at least the eighth century is--based on the evidence--absurd. The shroud cloth was radiocarbon dated to circa 1260-1390 by three separate laboratories. The date is consistent with a fourteenth-century bishop's report to Pope Clement VII that an earlier bishop had discovered the forger and that he had confessed.

CONCLUSION. As in the past, claims that the Turin cloth may be authentic are simply based on "shroud science"--an approach that begins with the desired answer. In contrast, genuine science demonstrates emphatically that the shroud image is the work of a medieval artist and that the cloth never held a body--let alone that of Jesus.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary critique prepared by Joe Nickell, Senior Research Fellow with the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) and author of Inquest on the Shroud of Turin.
To interview Nickell, contact 716-636-1425 X310.

Huon

Perhaps, some persons think that IF the shroud of Turin is a fake, THEN they cannot any more believe in Jesus Christ ? Then, SINCE they believe in Jesus Christ, THEN the shroud of Turin is authentic.

John A. Broussard

These are Christian X-rays, which differ considerably from ordinary atheist X-rays used by your dentist.

A Christian X-ray (technically known as an X-X-ray) shows the surface characteristics of metals such as 1st century BC coins, hot-cut nails, and any metallic flowers that were typical of the Indus Vallley.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Here it is!

This is how the real face on the shroud should have looked...



Not bad, eh?

The image comes from this webpage,

http://www.robertlomas.com/Shroud/Exp1/face.html

http://www.robertlomas.com/Shroud/Exp1/exper1.html

The whole thing is a crude hoax...

Cheers,

Yuri.

PS. I don't know how to make the image appear in this thread here. Perhaps someone can help? I replaced "url" with "img" in the tags enclosing the picture address and it seems to have worked.

Orthodox_Freethinker

The answer is "Have we been posting in the same thread?":

The Carbon 14 Sample was Invalid; thus the tests in 1988 were invalid. This is reported in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Thermochimica Acta See: Volume 425 pp. 189-194).
http://www.factsplusfacts.com/carbon-14-now-we-know.htm

Shroud of Turin could date to time of Jesus, examiner says
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science...29-turin_x.htm

Peace.

Peace.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Thanks, Amaleq!

Of course this is how the image should have looked _if_ the sweat of the man in question miraculously turned into paint!

Cheers,

Yuri.

Orthodox_Freethinker

There is no paint on the shroud.

Peace.

Yuri Kuchinsky

So what creates the image then?

It's the supernatural paint!

Peace.

Yuri.