Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 03-15-2010, 03:46 AM

I have been looking for specific evidence for the existence of Christians in Palestine during the first century.

Regarding specific references, I have only come up with the reference from Tacitus.

Quote:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Are there any other actual references to support the existence of Christians in firs century Palestine, apart from Christian sources like Acts, or the references in the Epistles?

mountainman · 03-15-2010, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Are there any other actual references to support the existence of Christians in firs century Palestine, apart from Christian sources like Acts, or the references in the Epistles?

Only the major and minor inferences in Josephus --- "suddenly discovered"

by our roving reporter Eusebius "at a particularly shameful hour".

You could of course start a collection of generally acknowledge forged documents such as the letter exchange between Jesus Henry and Astro Agbar, and that between Dear Paul and Senecca's Ghost. Let me know when you're ready to shuffle through the 2nd century and/or out of the event horizon of Palestine.

dog-on · 03-15-2010, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Are there any other actual references to support the existence of Christians in firs century Palestine, apart from Christian sources like Acts, or the references in the Epistles?

Only the major and minor inferences in Josephus --- "suddenly discovered"

by our roving reporter Eusebius "at a particularly shameful hour".

You could of course start a collection of generally acknowledge forged documents such as the letter exchange between Jesus Henry and Astro Agbar, and that between Dear Paul and Senecca's Ghost. Let me know when you're ready to shuffle through the 2nd century and/or out of the event horizon of Palestine.

Josephus doesn't actually say that there were Christians in Palestine.

ApostateAbe · 03-15-2010, 07:25 AM

The authentic letters of Paul I take to be damned good evidence of Christians in first-century Palestine. They offer a perspective that would not be expected from anyone except a first-century Christian Jew.

But, you would not accept a first century date for any of the letters attributed to Paul. Is that for a good reason? Or do you just want evidence that is absolutely undeniable?

I accept a first century date because that is what is most probable, not that it is absolutely undeniable. mountainman moves the beginnings of Christianity to the fourth century. It may seem like a facepalmer, but, it is certainly possible--it just takes a bunch of weird forgeries and fantastic conspiracies.

The study of history is filled with best guesses and almost no certainties. Our earliest copies of the authentic Pauline letters were scribed in the mid-second-century, but that doesn't mean we accept a mid-second-century date for their authorship. We should accept only what seems most probable. I have heard arguments for later dates, but they don't seem to hold up so well.

aa5874 · 03-15-2010, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I have been looking for specific evidence for the existence of Christians in Palestine during the first century.

Regarding specific references, I have only come up with the reference from Tacitus.

Quote:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Are there any other actual references to support the existence of Christians in firs century Palestine, apart from Christian sources like Acts, or the references in the Epistles?

But, Tacitus does not actually say anything about Jesus.

Actually, no historian wrote about Jesus of Nazareth.

And, even in the NT, when Jesus was alive there were no persons called Christians on account of belief in Jesus.

In the Gospel, Jesus was not known as Christus by his followers.

In the Canon, people were first called Christians in Antioch long after Jesus was executed for a blasphemous statement made ONLY during his interrogation.

Jesus was believed to be a prophet or John the Baptist not the Messiah even in the Canon.

Mark 8.27-28

Quote:

27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

And now, based on the Canon, it was after the conversion of Saul/Paul , and in Antioch not Jerusalem that the disciples were FIRST called Christians.

Acts 11.26-

Quote:

25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people.

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Tacitus's Christus and Christians are not at all related to Jesus and Jesus believers.

And to further drive home the point that Tacitus' Christus was not Jesus and that his execution was not to check any superstition, it can be shown that after Jesus was executed in the Canon, his disciples were allowed to freely roam the streets of Judea and had thousands of followers and even had the sick lined in the streets on beds.

Acts 5.14-16

Quote:

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Tacitus' Christus and Christians were not Jesus and Jesus believers.

1. Jesus was not known as Christus by the populace when he was alive.

2. Jesus believers were first called Christians in Antioch after Jesus had died.

3. Jesus believers were still operating in public after the death of Jesus.

dog-on · 03-15-2010, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The authentic letters of Paul I take to be damned good evidence of Christians in first-century Palestine. They offer a perspective that would not be expected from anyone except a first-century Christian Jew.

But, you would not accept a first century date for any of the letters attributed to Paul. Is that for a good reason? Or do you just want evidence that is absolutely undeniable?

I accept a first century date because that is what is most probable, not that it is absolutely undeniable. mountainman moves the beginnings of Christianity to the fourth century. It may seem like a facepalmer, but, it is certainly possible--it just takes a bunch of weird forgeries and fantastic conspiracies.

The study of history is filled with best guesses and almost no certainties. Our earliest copies of the authentic Pauline letters were scribed in the mid-second-century, but that doesn't mean we accept a mid-second-century date for their authorship. We should accept only what seems most probable. I have heard arguments for later dates, but they don't seem to hold up so well.

Would you care to list the specific references to Christians in Paul?

And, more spcifically, Christians in Palestine?

Thanks.

dog-on · 03-15-2010, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I have been looking for specific evidence for the existence of Christians in Palestine during the first century.

Regarding specific references, I have only come up with the reference from Tacitus.

Are there any other actual references to support the existence of Christians in firs century Palestine, apart from Christian sources like Acts, or the references in the Epistles?

But, Tacitus does not actually say anything about Jesus.

Actually, no historian wrote about Jesus of Nazareth.

And, even in the NT, when Jesus was alive there were no persons called Christians on account of belief in Jesus. [b]In the Gospel, Jesus was not known as Christ by his followers.

In the Canon, people were first called Christians in Antioch long after Jesus was executed for a blasphemous statement made ONLY during his interrogation.

Jesus was believed to be a prophet or John the Baptist not the Messiah even in the Canon.

Mark 8.27-28

And now, based on the Canon, it was after the conversion of Saul/Paul , and in Antioch not Jerusalem that the disciples were FIRST called Christians.

Acts 11.26-

Tacitus's Christus and Christians are not at all related to Jesus and Jesus believers.

And to further drive home the point that Tacitus' Christus was not Jesus and that his execution was not to check any superstition, it can be shown that after Jesus was executed in the Canon, his disciples were allowed to freely roam the streets of Judea and had thousands of followers and even had the sick lined in the streets on beds.

Acts 5.14-16

Quote:

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Tacitus' Christus and Christians were not Jesus and Jesus believers.

1. Jesus was not known as Christus by the populace when he was alive.

2. Jesus believers were first called Christians in Antioch after Jesus had died.

3. Jesus believers were still operating in public after the death of Jesus.

Benefit of the doubt, re Tacitus, or without that, I would have nothing.

Dutch_labrat · 03-15-2010, 08:00 AM

Do mind that various other cults existed that were also called christians.

Whatever what kind of christians existed in these times they were in nothing like what we would call a christian. Orthodox churches, the roman catholics, bible, OT translations; Nothing like that existed to even define a christian.

ApostateAbe · 03-15-2010, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The authentic letters of Paul I take to be damned good evidence of Christians in first-century Palestine. They offer a perspective that would not be expected from anyone except a first-century Christian Jew.

But, you would not accept a first century date for any of the letters attributed to Paul. Is that for a good reason? Or do you just want evidence that is absolutely undeniable?

I accept a first century date because that is what is most probable, not that it is absolutely undeniable. mountainman moves the beginnings of Christianity to the fourth century. It may seem like a facepalmer, but, it is certainly possible--it just takes a bunch of weird forgeries and fantastic conspiracies.

The study of history is filled with best guesses and almost no certainties. Our earliest copies of the authentic Pauline letters were scribed in the mid-second-century, but that doesn't mean we accept a mid-second-century date for their authorship. We should accept only what seems most probable. I have heard arguments for later dates, but they don't seem to hold up so well.

Would you care to list the specific references to Christians in Paul?

And, more spcifically, Christians in Palestine?

Thanks.

OK, we can start with Galatians 1:18-24.

¹⁸Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter [Cephas] and stayed with him fifteen days. ¹⁹I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother. ²⁰I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.²¹Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. ²²I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. ²³They only heard the report: 'The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.' ²⁴And they praised God because of me.

So, James and Cephas would be two Christians living around Jerusalem, presumably in the first century before Jews were expelled. What do you think of those two characters?

dog-on · 03-15-2010, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Would you care to list the specific references to Christians in Paul?

And, more spcifically, Christians in Palestine?

Thanks.

OK, we can start with Galatians 1:18-24.

¹⁸Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter [Cephas] and stayed with him fifteen days. ¹⁹I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother. ²⁰I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.²¹Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. ²²I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. ²³They only heard the report: 'The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.' ²⁴And they praised God because of me.

So, James and Cephas would be two Christians living around Jerusalem, presumably in the first century before Jews were expelled. What do you think of those two characters?

You are assuming this, right?

I asked you to specify where, in fact, Paul mentions Christians.

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03-15-2010, 07:25 AM	#4
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	The authentic letters of Paul I take to be damned good evidence of Christians in first-century Palestine. They offer a perspective that would not be expected from anyone except a first-century Christian Jew. But, you would not accept a first century date for any of the letters attributed to Paul. Is that for a good reason? Or do you just want evidence that is absolutely undeniable? I accept a first century date because that is what is most probable, not that it is absolutely undeniable. mountainman moves the beginnings of Christianity to the fourth century. It may seem like a facepalmer, but, it is certainly possible--it just takes a bunch of weird forgeries and fantastic conspiracies. The study of history is filled with best guesses and almost no certainties. Our earliest copies of the authentic Pauline letters were scribed in the mid-second-century, but that doesn't mean we accept a mid-second-century date for their authorship. We should accept only what seems most probable. I have heard arguments for later dates, but they don't seem to hold up so well.

03-15-2010, 08:00 AM	#8
Dutch_labrat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Leiden, The Netherlands Posts: 970	Do mind that various other cults existed that were also called christians. Whatever what kind of christians existed in these times they were in nothing like what we would call a christian. Orthodox churches, the roman catholics, bible, OT translations; Nothing like that existed to even define a christian.

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