aa5874

It is a complete fallacy to think that Jesus was the origin of Christianity or that all Christians believed in Jesus.

There were probably thousands of Christians in Samaria who did not believe in Jesus since the days of the Emperor Cladius before the Jesus story was written. These Christians believed in Simon Magus and Menader.

There would have been people called Christians without any character called Jesus. Theophilus of Antioch, Athengoras, and Octavius in Felix Municius called themselves Christian but ONLY believed in GOD, they did not mention Jesus and that he died for their sins.

You must have forgotten that Mormonisn was started based on information that was said to be copied from Golden Plates. There were no Golden plates but people believed that Joseph Smith did copy his Mormon documents from the Golden plates.

It must be blatantly obvious that it was NOT necessary for there to have been Golden plates, it was only necessary for people to believe that the information was from a Divine source.

So, likewise it was NOT necessary for there to have been a Jesus only that the information in the anonymous writing was from a Divine source or believed to be the words of Jesus a Son of God.

It was the belief in the supposed Divine based document that was the most important factor for Mormonism and Jesus believers.

Johnny Skeptic

Not according to my source, according to your source. Rodney Stark is your source. Consider the following from one of my previous posts:

Some thousands over two and one-half centuries is not much of a case for Christian martyrs. Do you have any evidence that they were given a chance to recant their beliefs? If so, how many of them? If they weren't, then obviously they were not martyrs. Of course, there is not a necessary correlation between martyrdom and the truth, as proven by Japanese Kamikaze pilots and Muslim terrorists who have died for their religious beliefs. Historically, who knows how many people died for false religious beliefs?

Johnny Skeptic

My position is not that miracles are impossible, but that there is not sufficient evidence that specific miracles have occured, in this case, the miracles that Jesus performed. Would you like to discuss Jesus' miracles in a new thread that I could start?

Doug Shaver

So, Mormonism really happened, and early Christianity really happened?

You've got me there. I don't have a shred of evidence to the contrary.

Johnny Skeptic

When did early Christianity begin?

arnoldo

Christianity began in the first century and Mormonism in the 19th and over time branched into different sects. It'd be absurd to argue that all of the different sects which exist today in Mormonism arose simultaneously in the 19th century. Given the trajectory of Christianity spreading across various cultures in the span of two hundred years by the second century there would be many schisms. There are undeniable historical reports that by the third century this became a concern amongst christian leaders who attempted at a reconciliation of this issue.

aa5874

There is no historical source external of apologetics that show there were people who believed in or knew a character called Jesus, the Messiah, Christ, Son of God, Lord and Saviour, with the power to forgive the sins of all mankind and to abolish the Laws of God in the first century.

There is no historical sources external of apologetics to show that Jews were worshiping a man as a God called Jesus contrary to their own beliefs and after having Jesus executed for claiming that he was a God or the son of one.

And further, no Church writer used the forgeries in Josephus to claim Jesus did exist and was raised from the dead until the writer called Eusebius in the 4th century.

There is no historical evidence outside of apologetics that people believed in Jesus the God/man in the 1st century.

Doug Shaver

I'm inclined to agree, although I've never actually studied the origin of Mormonism. I suspect that if I were to undertake such a study, I'd discover that there was lots more evidence, and a lot better evidence, to work with than there is for the origin of Christianity.

To mention just one difference . . . . It is widely believed that the founder of Mormonism was a man by the name of Joseph Smith. I'm under the impression that there is abundant documentation of his existence, and that the documentation is contemporaneous with him, and that much of it was produced by people known to have been personally acquainted with him.

dog-on

And, of course, he is listed as the author of the Book of Mormon...

andrewcriddle

See pliny and trajan on christians There are numerous Christian accounts of Martyrdom with the same premise, ie that denying Christ and worshipping the Roman Gods and/or Emperor in court would have prevented conviction.

Andrew Criddle