Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Prester John · 04-12-2008, 08:17 AM

Isn't part of the issue that the NT is dependant upon supernatural elements being true for it to make any sense, ie if Jesus isn't the Son of God the NT loses its meaning. Other texts such as Tacitus do not centre on the supernatural and other unlikely events - they can be discounted yet the text maintains value.

aa5874 · 04-12-2008, 10:06 AM

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

See "Against Heresies" by Irenaeus, or "First Apology" and "Dialogue with Trypho" by Justin Martyr.

Where in those works do you find evidence that the people Justin and Irenaeus were arguing with questioned the existence of Jesus ?

(As distinct from holding views about Jesus that Justin and Irenaeus strongly disliked.)

Andrew Criddle

Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho" LXVI,

Quote:

.....And I (Justin) continued: Now it is evident to all, that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no-one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born [of a virgin] save Christ.

Trypho's response, "Dialogue with Trypho" LXVII

Quote:

And Trypho answered, " The scripture has not, "Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, but, Behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son', and so on, as you quoted.

But the whole prophecy refers to Hezekiah, and it was fulfilled in him, according to the terms of this prophecy.

Moreover, in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin, and he who was called among them Zeus having descended upon her in the form of a golden shower.

And, you ought to feel ashamed when you make assertions similar to theirs, and rather [should] say that this Jesus was born man of men.

And if you prove from the Scriptures that He is the Christ, and that on account of having led a life conformed to the law, and perfect, He deserved the honour of being elected to be the Christ, [It is well]; but do not venture to tell monstrous phenomena, lest you be convicted of talking foolishly like the Greeks."

Justin Martyr in "Dialogue with Trypho" CX

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....I ( Justin) continued, "Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit that the whole words of this passage refer to Christ, and I am likewise aware that they maintain that he has NOT yet come....

Soul Invictus · 04-12-2008, 10:13 AM

For your reading pleasure...a thread from 2002 which compares Alexander and Jesus.

Amaleq13 · 04-12-2008, 12:25 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

But, the main problem with Jesus of Nazareth, is that his existence has been challenged from since the 2nd century, quite unlike Alexander the Great or any other figure of antiquity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Trypho's response, "Dialogue with Trypho" LXVII...

That response does not challenge the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. It challenges a translation and interpretation of Hebrew Scripture and criticizes belief in a virgin birth for Jesus.

Quote:

Justin Martyr in "Dialogue with Trypho" CX...

That passage also does not challenge the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. It acknowledges that Trypho's Jewish teachers believed that the messiah had not yet come.

aa5874 · 04-12-2008, 01:39 PM

This is so obviously simple. Based on Justin Martyr, people challenged the existence of Jesus up to the 2nd century.

Justin Martyr, writing around the middle of the 2nd century, "Dialogue with Trypho"

Quote:

......I am likewise aware that they maintain that He has NOT yet come.....

Amaleq13 · 04-12-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

This is so obviously simple.

It should be both obvious and simple but you still don't seem to get it. Trypho's Jewish teachers believed the Messiah (ie Christ) had not yet come which meant that Jesus could not have been the Messiah. Such an argument neither requires nor even suggests that either Trypho or his teachers doubted that Jesus existed.

Quote:

Based on Justin Martyr, people challenged the existence of Jesus up to the 2nd century.

No, neither of the statements you quoted explicitly or implicitly suggest a challenge that Jesus never existed. They challenge the belief that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth and they challenge that Jesus was the Messiah.

aa5874 · 04-12-2008, 07:23 PM

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Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho"....I am likewise aware that they maintain that He has not yet come, or if they say He has come, they assert that it is not known who he is.....

So, it is very simple and straightforward, the teachers maintained that Jesus Christ did not come up to the middle of the second century, or if he did come, no-one knew who he was.

Amaleq13 · 04-13-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

So, it is very simple and straightforward, the teachers maintained that Jesus Christ did not come up to the middle of the second century, or if he did come, no-one knew who he was.

Drop the "Jesus" and you will finally grasp it. They are denying that the Messiah, in the sense of a position or title, had come. They are not denying that Jesus had yet to come. They are denying that Jesus was the Messiah because the Messiah had not yet come. You seem to be getting confused by the Christian use of the title as though it was a name.

You also seem close to grasping the belief Trypho appears to hold regarding the Messiah (ie that even the Messiah will not know he is the Messiah until he is anointed).

It is entirely possible IMO that the author of Mark held this belief as well.

aa5874 · 04-13-2008, 08:37 AM

This is odd. Drop Jesus? Let me see what happens when I drop Jesus.

The "title" has not yet come, but if the "title" has come, no-one knows who has the "title".

This simply does not make sense to me. I cannot separate Jesus from Christ , it would be insane to do so.

Amaleq13 · 04-13-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The "title" has not yet come, but if the "title" has come, no-one knows who has the "title". This simply does not make sense to me.

Then you need to improve your knowledge and understanding of Jewish beliefs about The Messiah. They believed that The Messiah had not yet come so Jesus (or anybody else for that matter) could not possibly be The Messiah. In addition, they apparently believed that even The Messiah would not know he was The Messiah until he was anointed. You can find this theme in a wide variety of sources from King Arthur to The Matrix so I'm having difficulty believing you are unfamiliar with it or do not understand it.

Do you truly not understand that The Messiah was expected to come and that The Messiah was not some guy's name but a title/position/role the guy was supposed to fill?

Do you truly not understand that Christians subsequently turned the title/position/role into a name by using it as such?

Quote:

I cannot separate Jesus from Christ , it would be insane to do so.

No, it would not and it is incomprehensible that you would think so. Jews do it to this very day.

Are you truly so completely ignorant of Jewish messianic beliefs?

"Sir, I have found you an explanation, but I am not obliged to find you an understanding." -- Samuel Johnson

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04-12-2008, 08:17 AM	#61
Prester John Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wales Posts: 560	Isn't part of the issue that the NT is dependant upon supernatural elements being true for it to make any sense, ie if Jesus isn't the Son of God the NT loses its meaning. Other texts such as Tacitus do not centre on the supernatural and other unlikely events - they can be discounted yet the text maintains value.

04-12-2008, 10:13 AM	#63
Soul Invictus Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 15,576	For your reading pleasure...a thread from 2002 which compares Alexander and Jesus.

04-13-2008, 08:37 AM	#69
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	This is odd. Drop Jesus? Let me see what happens when I drop Jesus. The "title" has not yet come, but if the "title" has come, no-one knows who has the "title". This simply does not make sense to me. I cannot separate Jesus from Christ , it would be insane to do so.

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