Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 11-10-2008, 03:16 PM

Why is this not with classic chinese whispers, the basis of the gospel stories?

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3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

mountainman · 11-10-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why is this not with classic chinese whispers, the basis of the gospel stories?

Dear Clivedurdle,

The whisperers of Josephus could not have generated so many Josephian heretics, as did the whisperers of the gospel stories. And if indeed the Josephan stories are detected in the accoustic impressions at Dura Europos, at the ancient Roman/Parthian frontier, would not this fact have been brought to light by Eusebius in his diligent research of the scanty records available to him at such short notice?

Best wishes,

Pete

aa5874 · 11-10-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why is this not with classic chinese whispers, the basis of the gospel stories?

It is my view that the writings of Josephus are the basis of the Jesus stories there are just too many elements found in the writings of Josephus to be ignored, bearing in mind that the authors of the first Jesus stories as written in the NT do not appear to have been Jews.

neilgodfrey · 11-11-2008, 12:16 AM

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1. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.

This surely was an historical event since (a) Josephus was writing only history with no religious axe to grind, and (b) Matthew clearly based his birth story on this event independently known to him.

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2. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

This was also historical for the same reason (a) above, and (b) Luke clearly based his birth anecdotes about angelic lights and glory from the same event independently known to him.

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3. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

The criterion of embarrassment proves that this also really happened. No historian would be prepared to face the embarrassment of declaring such an event unless it were truly historical, incapable of denial!

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4. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Again, a common historical tradition lies behind this and the great stone that moved by itself from the tomb (metaphor for the temple) and the guards rushing to tell the authorities, since it is simply nonsense to even suggest any relationship between the literature of Josephus and the gospels.

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5. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Obviously this was a well known historical tradition that underlay the “coming of the Son of Man prophecy”.

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6. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Josephus presumably confused the Christian saying of Jesus warning his followers to flee to the hills.

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7. But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, . . . .

For this one, Ted Weeden had it summed up long ago (though he was not the first). --- see here.

Neil Godfrey

andrewcriddle · 11-11-2008, 02:04 PM

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Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

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1. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.

This surely was an historical event since (a) Josephus was writing only history with no religious axe to grind, and (b) Matthew clearly based his birth story on this event independently known to him.

FWIW this comet was almost certainly Halley's Comet.

Andrew Criddle

vid · 11-11-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

this comet was almost certainly Halley's Comet.

can you please link some text which sums up evidence for this claim?

neilgodfrey · 11-11-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

FWIW this comet was almost certainly Halley's Comet.

Andrew Criddle

I should of course broken that point into 2 separate signs -- the sword-like star standing over the city, and the comet that lasted an entire year. So Josephus lists 8 signs of the end.

andrewcriddle · 11-11-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

this comet was almost certainly Halley's Comet.

can you please link some text which sums up evidence for this claim?

See Comets by Olivier.
(Basically from accurate Chinese records and modern astronomy we know there was a bright return of Halley's Comet in 66 CE at the time when Josephus and (I believe) other Western writers note a bright and ominous comet. )

Andrew Criddle

neilgodfrey · 11-11-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

can you please link some text which sums up evidence for this claim?

See Comets by Olivier.
(Basically from accurate Chinese records and modern astronomy we know there was a bright return of Halley's Comet in 66 CE at the time when Josephus and (I believe) other Western writers note a bright and ominous comet. )

Andrew Criddle

Is it necessary to think that there really was a comet at all, any more than there was a sword shaped star sitting over a city, or that a cow gave birth to a sheep? If there really was a comet within 5 or so years of the event might not this be more coincidental than a clear referent?

Ancient and medieval historians seemed quite fond of routinely describing comets, earthquakes, miraculous portents of all kinds in relation to any notable death or destruction.

And when Josephus says this particular comet was remarkable for lasting an entire year, are we not entitled to think its provenance was more in rumour and popular suggestion than astronomical fact? Why seek a scientific kernel for this any more than we would seek one for the chariots in the sky or the lamb born of a cow?

Neil Godfrey

Jayrok · 11-11-2008, 06:54 PM

Are there records of Jewish commentaries on the similarities in the NT gospels/Acts and the writings of Josephus from any time period after the first couple of centuries or past the middle ages?

It seems odd that something like this would not be noticed by people over the years.

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11-11-2008, 06:54 PM	#10
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	Are there records of Jewish commentaries on the similarities in the NT gospels/Acts and the writings of Josephus from any time period after the first couple of centuries or past the middle ages? It seems odd that something like this would not be noticed by people over the years.

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