lulay

spin, i feel you are defining what can be experienced by the scientific method
Admittedly it has its place, but applied in its presnt form to realms it cannot describe--and which are indescribable, errr 'literally' is limiting WHAT you can experience.
I am talking about a dimension which can be called -take your pick, or pick your own--irrational, extrarational, or nonrational.

look at this analogy...modern physics was shocked by its discoveries in the macroscopic world. For example, the particle/wav complimentary reality, that invloves the observer. A prominent phycists has admitted to me by email that physicists use quantum mechanics, YET noone understands it....!

So, imagine being in a dimension that is experientially commensurate with that weird world, of ambiguity. can one understand it. You are IN it. Flowing with it. the meaning IS that.

Chili

Lulay, you make it sound like science is always behind the eightball while you have already played yours.

You missed "Pure Reason."

lulay

as soon as you say "pure reason" you think "impure emotion" or intuition, or any feeling which doesn't come with 'evidence'. this is the cage you have made for yourself--the paradigm we are caged in

this is not to deny science (in its present form)...it is to see its LIMITATIONS, not only in its present form which is materialistic-mechanistic, but also 'reason' itself. that is why the ecstatic dimension has been called 'extrarational' or 'nonrational'...because it cannot be fathomed.
It odesn't mean one would ALLways be in that dimension. we are a continuum of experience. but hwat has happened now--in consensual accepted reality is to DENY that nonrational dimension. to prohibit
experience of it, and attempt to ridicule it/desacralize it, in the name of so-called 'pure reason'

Chris Weimer

um...lulay, I'm having a difficult time understanding your thread here... You claim that Jesus is the archetype of ingesting god via hallucinigens, and to be hallucinating is to be reborn?

1. I've taken 'shrooms before, so I personally know what is "feels" like. But I also know why it feels that way. Not because we're transcending mind or anything, but instead of perceptions go haywire due to the chemicals your injecting into your brain. It's counteractive to your argument that before writing was based on clearer understanding of reality since reality becomes null in animo. Besides, we have had writing for longer than you think. The "alphabet" is only a bunch of repeated pictograms that became associated with sounds. How is that a loss of anything? I don't know. To me it is more of a gain. We learn a new art form. We expand our mind in new ways. As children (humanity, i.e.) we always had this side of logic, and we misapplied it. We instead fabricated gods and supernatural beings because we didn't have enough evidence contrary. Now you do the same again.

2. Have you ever had that intuitive feeling that a particular day was going to be especially lucky for you, and instead it turned out terrible? Or that a certain lottery ticket was a winner, and instead you won zilch? Intuition is only the connection of the mind working through the subconscious to produce a feeling based on familiar events. It works a lot, but it isn't 100% accurate. If everyone had a perfect intuition, then there would be no problems, for then everyone would just be able to avoid anything that would casue them pain etc... Learn to use logic sometimes. It too is open to errors, but together they happen to work out in perfect harmony. Sometimes. What's the point of this second part? If your intuition is correct, why can't everyone come up with the same result?

lulay

I think i find it the most sad when people who HAVe taken hallucinogens fail to realize their significance than people who haven't had do same.

what can i say?

Really, i find you dismissal of them as 'it's really just chemicals going haywire' (paraphrased) not really that scientific if science is what you are promoting

some of the greatest minds haven't a clue what psychdelics REALLY do.
This is why, as i have said elsewhere, currently science has come to its biggest challenge--investigation of consciousness, particularly 'subjective consciousness'

At these forums i continually see people discussing discussing religious literalism. Now, don't get me wrong, they have that right. But i wonder if they realize that that is all in the head? That EXPERIENCE is going by the wayside.
Where do you think the awe --as recorded in the history of mythology and religion came from? just talking about scripture? do you think it came because people were more receptive to 'God's grace' then? Or can you not fathom that our ancestors may have been closer to the earthm have known more about the faun and flora, and just might have experiemented with
certain hallucinogenic concoctions

The evidence is all there man. I have spent years looking into this. Your casual dismissal because of your mediocre interpretation of your shroom trip is neither here nor there in comparison with evidence of hallucinogens significance for our species.

You really do have to be generalist about this subject. research on the web, look at experiences of hallucinogens reported at Erowid, the Lycaeum, and come back and tell me that those experiences are not relevant concerning spirituality.

Regarding intuition, you haven't read all i havee said in this thread. I am not advocating doing away with 'reason'. you have to understand that a mjor even has happened in the history of ideas. the abstract separation of 'reason' AND 'intuition'.

Gawen

If you could precisely offer a source for a precise pagan ritual of this type, that would help. And is it common knowledge that ritual plants were all hallucinogens? Or are you saying the "Hellenistic-Judaic version of the pagan god-man who was the ever-living ever-dying ever-regenerating god-man, Son/Lover of the Goddess" ritual came from people who ate plants that were hallucinogens?

At first glance this looks like being drawn and quartered. Once again, a couple of ritual pagan sources would be useful here. How do you not know that a common beet-root wasn't passed around where everyone could take a bite of it? Why must it be pulled apart?

This sure is a far cry from harvest rituals where they had to wait till next harvest to see if the gods provide for them. It seems ego has nothing much to do about it.

Yeah, and when the mushroom wears off, you're right back into reality.

But we're not talking about mushrooms here are we? Jesus is the mushroom, right? Well, not really a mushroom...more like the mind's inability to distinguish learned or self-induced hallucinogenic phenomena. What do I think? I don't think much of your theory at this time.

Alright, so if smoking peyote was good enough for some indigenous North Americans, it should be good enough for us now? But American Indians didn't have a printed text.

I don't know lulay... :huh:
Sounds like you're saying the writers of the gospel and epistles were all not of their right minds; hallucinating to acheive a godhood like life. And since they could do it, everyone else should as well. Turn the other cheek? Yeah, well I won't turn in my neighbour for doing PCP if he doesn't turn me in. Love your neighbour? Under certain chemically controled hallucinogens I could sure put a godlike rumpus on a couple of the neighbour ladies...
There's a bunch of people during the 1960's and early 70's that thought they found their meaning of life. These people must now be todays televangelists?

To me, taking mind altering drugs to escape or enhance reality is a cop-out.

cloggy

Jesus is not some reflection of me, he's a reflection of superstitious ancients trying to become more civil while still carying many remainders of a barbaric past with them. The character stems from a worldview that's nowhere near as devolped as that of the average poster on this board.

Chili

. . . and an added burden for our children and their children. It is like an unpaid bill that we pass on to them because we could not deal with the problems that we created in our own life (I should add here that part of the problem may have been handed to us by our parents).

Chris Weimer

um lulay - spirituality, along with everything else you describe, are all just matters in your mind, especially the hallucinations. It's in your mind. Everything you are talking about, you're making up. Good for you. :thumbs: Keep it to yourself now. What is in your mind should stay there, especially since it exists only in your mind.

lulay

(unfortunately i cant 'quote' as you can..i hav to do it all manually with a server that cuts me off after a time...so)
the gist of what your asking is some kind of sources which explain connection between an ancient earth religious paganistic eating drinking of a god-man which then influences the Christian myth

see Dionysus and Yeshua/2
www.dhushara.com/book/diochris/dio2.htm

(any trouble with these links let me know)

"The ritual of eating and drinking the 'body' and 'blood' of Jesus is celebrated by Christians at the Eucharist. Such a 'holy communion' was also practiced in the Mysteries, as a means of becoming one with Osiris-Dionysus. The uninitiated who misunderstood these rites accused the Mysteries of practising cannabilism - exactly the same accusation that was later lelled at early Christians who celebrated the Eucharist"ff (The Jesus Mysteries, by Timothy Freke & Peter Grundy ps 59-60)

The Historical Jesus and the Pagan Christ http://www.jdstone.org/cr/files/theh...ganchrist.html
"Dionysus is represented as a bull or calf torn to pieces and eaten by his devotees in the belief that they were killing a god, eating his flesh and drinking his blood. At at Eleusis..."

If you are confused here, this is complex. sholars like Dan Russell argue that the celebrants took sacraments (hallucinogenic) ANd sacrificed a bull. i am exploring whether the animal wasn't a metaphor for the mushroom--or a literalization of a myth that had been forgotten, But Russell does argue that the bull sacrifice and entheogen ingestion went hand in hand

(continued from site) "ceremonies commerated in Greek ritual the agony, death and resurrection of Dionysus...ultimately there was "ecstatic union with Dionysus".

"The bread and wine, or represented, the body and blood of Christ; the worshippers of Dionysus, Attis and Mithra had entertained like beliefs at banquets where they ate the magic embodiments or symbols of their gods........Clearly Dionysus was a part model for the Divine Christ though the evangelist John (15:1) objected that Jesus was the "true vine"

a good critiques of The Jesus Mysteries can be read at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...=ATVPDKIKXODER

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