Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-27-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

In the end, Allen prefers her Jesus as a Jew who is the divinized Christ of Catholic Christian orthodoxy. While the book might be helpful to some readers as an introduction to the quest for the historical Jesus, its superficial scholarship makes this a less than worthwhile contribution to the historical Jesus conversation.

Are xians happy with this wholly man wholly god doctrine or whatever it is? I forget what I used to believe!

Fascinating that both sides are heretical - overemphasising the historical and the mythical (oops supernatural!)

michael wellenberg · 03-27-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Xians do see acceptance of an HJ as the first step towards our salvation

If an atheist says that he inclines to believe that a HJ did exist, he can continue, I think, to call himself an atheist proudly and frankly.
But if he says he believes in the HJ, he really is in danger to get into missionary sphere entailing resurrection/ascension.
On the other hand it is not a sign for an heretical Christian not to emphasize, even to ignore the HJ, and leave this issue to the historians.

With regards

MW

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-27-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I don't think I'm being circular. We are trying to find the cause of an effect, to find what caused the entire phenomenon we call Christianity. If you proceed from the Christianity of today back to the past in an attempt to construct a causal chain, you come to what? I am contending that the only cause that makes any sense is a man of astounding abilities. No other cause can explain the phenomenon.

And this conclusion is not true just because you say so. You have to explain why alternatives are impossible.

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As for a reliable depiction of this personality, I would suggest this.

Hpw do you know it's reliable?

Do you realize that you actually aren't making any arguments from evidence. You're just making assertions and (at best) a rather unconvincing argument from incredulity

jakejonesiv · 03-27-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

At his trial, Michael Servetus was condemned on two counts, for spreading and preaching Nontrinitarianism and anti-paedobaptism (infant baptism).

Wikipedia

Thanks for the info on Michael Servetus. That's interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

But the point remains; the label of Christian can be retained as a self designation by those who doubt HJ.

I don't think that that is true.

That's not your call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Please provide evidence that the Dutch Radicals did not believe in a historical Jesus.

Are you totally unaware of the history of Christ mythicism? I am suprised, because you seem to have all the answers, but apparently do not even know the questions.

Here is Klaus Schilling's translation on Michael Hofmann's website of of Arthur Drews' article, on the history of the denial of the historicity of Jesus.

I chose KSchilling's link because of the bibliography at the end. It should give a feel that the subject is something that cannot legetimately addressed in a two paragragh post.

Jake Jones IV

No Robots · 03-27-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Are xians happy with this wholly man wholly god doctrine or whatever it is?

Conservatives like Allen certainly are.

No Robots · 03-27-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Are you totally unaware of the history of Christ mythicism? I am suprised, because you seem to have all the answers, but apparently do not even know the questions.

None of the Dutch Radicals came right out and said there was no historical Jesus. Drews says that, for them, "There may have been some "Jesus", but its role is left completely in the dark and can't be reconstructed by scripture or any other extant ancient testimony."

jakejonesiv · 03-27-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I have frequently provided a link to what I consider is a source of persuasive arguments against mythicism, but I have yet to interest anyone in an extended discussion of this text. There seems to be a very strong resistance on the part of mythicists to do any close reading of documents which oppose their position.

Nor have you done a close reading.

But this a a type of the pablum in your link:

Quote:

The entire Gospel of Matthew has the one and only purpose of showing how Christ's life conforms to the prophecies of Scripture; how different, therefore, how magnificent and wondrous is the life of Christ as presented to us by Matthew's Gospel!

:boohoo:

Jake

jakejonesiv · 03-27-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

None of the Dutch Radicals came right out and said there was no historical Jesus.

You are embarrassing yourself now. It is time for you to do some research.

DE EVANGELISCHE JOZUA by G.J.P.J. BOLLAND

G. A. van den Bergh van Eysinga's 1930 article "Leeft Jezus - of Heeft Hij Alleen Maar Geleefd? Een Studie over Het Dogma der Historiciteit".
See KSchilling's review in Englsih here.

Jake Jones IV

Doug Shaver · 03-27-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

I have frequently provided a link to what I consider is a source of persuasive arguments against mythicism, but I have yet to interest anyone in an extended discussion of this text.

For whatever reason, I never noticed it before now. I'll read through it and let you know what I think.

No Robots · 03-27-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

You are embarrassing yourself now. It is time for you to do some research.

DE EVANGELISCHE JOZUA by G.J.P.J. BOLLAND

G. A. van den Bergh van Eysinga's 1930 article "Leeft Jezus - of Heeft Hij Alleen Maar Geleefd? Een Studie over Het Dogma der Historiciteit".
See KSchilling's review in Englsih here.

Was Bolland a Christian? Can you provide statements from Bolland and Eysinga, and not just interpretations from Schilling, where they deny unequivocally the historicity of Jesus?

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