maryhelena

Stephan - I just gave you an alternative suggestion....................

The 90 b.c. dating, during the rule of Alexander Jannaeus, for the Toldoth Yeshu figure, does not cancel out the gospel Herod the Great dating for its JC figure. The gospel JC figure, like the Yeshu figure, is not historical.

Consequently, the two dating systems do not relate to the same ‘birth’ story. They relate to two different ‘birth’ stories. However, elements from the earlier birth story have been fused with the JC storyline from the time of Herod the Great.. Ie history is condensed in the gospel JC story.

The Toldoth Yeshua storyline, like the gospel JC storyline is not history. But, like the gospel JC storyline, its story is set within a historical timeframe. Yes, one can discard that date-stamp - as one can discard the gospel date-stamp as having no significance - but the question would still remain. Why that particular date stamp. If it’s history we are after - then, methinks, any indication of a historical time period should be investigated.

Yes, the Toldoth Yeshua story is very fanciful - and viewed through a gospel lens can be viewed as a parody. Without that gospel lens viewing - then the Toldoth Yeshua story can be read in its own right - as an allegorical or symbolic story - ie one can interpret that story as one sees fit - the story not it’s setting. Something within the timeframe from 90 b.c. allowed, suggested, that such a story be created. That, as I indicated in my earlier post, was possibly the birth of Antigonus - his later death, in 37 b.c., as the last King and High Priest of the Jews, being seen as historically significant. Yes, in the Toldoth Yeshua story, the Jews get the blame - but this is an allegory not history - and since it was Rome, Marc Antony, who did the dreadful deed, it’s not very likely that the allegory is going to spell this out. The Romans might not worry about being held to account for the murder of a Jewish King - but if some Jews are now going for some prophetic messianic angle re Antigonus - too risky by half for the Toldoth Yeshua story to involve the Romans....even Pilate washes his hands over JC...

Yes, of course any ancient source can get its story wrong. But Stephan, you of all people, are trying to extract history from these sources. My point is that one should not be carelessly cherry-picking only those ‘facts’ that support ones theory. In the case of the Toldoth Yeshu, it does date its Yeshu to the time of Alexander Jannaeus - in fact the one translation I referenced gives the specific dating - year 3671 - or around 90 b.c.

Stephan, don’t be relying on the gospel JC story as though it is history - your not doing that for the Toldoth Yeshua story. It’s history that needs to be put on the table - as far as history can be ascertained (and yes, Josephus has cooked the books re Hasmoneon/Herodian history). It's history that has to sort out this whole JC drama - not more and more NT interpretations, or the Toldoth Yeshu. All these two sources are offering is a date stamp. It’s left to us to fill in the history - and then, perhaps, that history will throw light upon the allegorical JC storyline.

stephan huller

History is all about deciding which sources are the most reliable. Outside of the rabbinic literature I can't think of a single source which argues for a dating for Jesus c 110 BCE. While such a dating would certainly help explain the seventy weeks prophesy of Daniel that alone doesn't justify preferring it to the usual dating for Jesus's ministry. Indeed the Marcionites and Catholics seem to agree about the gospel beginning in the fifteenth year of Tiberius. I don't know how we get around that. The Jews would have had only a passing interest in Jesus in the first two centuries. I think it is more plausible to explain the association with Jonathan Alexander (Jannai) owing to a well established confusion over a number of kings who identified themselves with this diminutive form of Jonathan and John

Why the interest? The rabbinic literature also identifies Jannai as a messianic name associated with yinnon from the Psalms

maryhelena

Why the interest? Stephan, I'm interested in getting to ground zero re early christian origins. That means considering Jewish history - in particular the late Hasmonean history and the Herodian history.

If, as I believe is the case, the gospel JC figure is not historical - then, Stephan, it's history that one has to turn to. And is that not what you have been trying to do with Marcus Julius Agrippa (Agrippa II). You look at history and find that this historical figure could have been involved with the developing christian story. You don't get that from the NT storyline. You have let history, a particular historical time-frame, pinpoint an individual who played a role in the days leading up to the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 c.e. That's all I'm trying to do - taking the gospel time stamp - and looking around at the historical figures that could have been relevant to the writers of that developing storyline. Additionally, there are other sources, the Toldoth Yeshu; the storyline preserved in Slavonic Josephus; early writers who write that Christians were about in the time of Augustus; a crucifixion storyline in the 7th year of Tiberius in 21 c.e. All in all, indications that this JC story has roots further back than the 15th year of Tiberius.

Consider gLuke and his 70 years - back to Lysanias of Abilene in 40 b.c. These 70 years cover the death of Antigonus and the rule of Philip the Tetrarch - Philip dying, (using Josephus for now....)just after, or around the same time as the gospel JC crucifixion story - 33 c.e. A nice fit for gLuke, a coincidence - or a glimpse of the historical realities lying underneath the gospel JC pseudo-history.

My take is on Antigonus and Philip the Tetrarch (who I happen to think became Agrippa I) - your take is Agrippa II. Perhaps it's all three of them - three historical figures that have influenced the creation of the gospel allegorical or symbolic JC story.

Yes, the whole Agrippa issue is problematic in Josephus - so all the more so reason to think that something is up and that Josephus is playing his cards very close to his chest.

Stephan, if the gospel JC storyline was ever going to be considered a historical story - then someone had to play fast and loose with real history. ie if the genuine, real, Hasmonean/Herodian history was as clear as a mirror - then the JC pseudo-history would be playing a losing game. The connection between the pseudo-historical JC and the real historical realities would be easy to spot; the pseudo-historical reflection would be easily discerned when set down alongside the historical reality, the real 'image'. Thus, some confusion would need to be set up - enter Josephus with his bag of tricks to obfuscate the real history.

And it's only by letting go of the assumption of a historical gospel JC that these roots, these links, can be followed up.

So, that's what I'm about....

footnote:

The other source is Epiphanius - but I suppose one could say he got it from the Jewish literature.....interesting though is that he was educated in Egypt....

stephan huller

I meant “why the interest in the name Jannai by three kings of Israel”

maryhelena

OK - then maybe you can answer that one.......I've nothing to offer....

stephan huller

The scriptural material is Psalm 72. Yet interesting also is the fact that the debe Yannai and the debe Haninah are both (a) related to the name John and (b) associate the name of the messiah with the head of their school. Coincidence?

There is a close parallel to other solar terminology associated with other messianic names or titles (tsemach for instance). I know that Justin takes an interest in this passage too. The association of this psalm with the messiah clearly must date back to the Hasmonean period. I can't believe that Jonathan Alexander just happened to call himself 'yannai.' Did the association begin with his father? That would be my suspicion. The rabbinic tradition so carefully avoids recognizing that John identified himself as both king and high priest. I smell a rat. It is interesting too that Josephus's description of the Jewish War makes clear the rebels took an interest in the statue of John Hyrcanus near the temple. John was the one who destroyed the Samaritan temple too. Coincidence that Agrippa called Jannai, the destroyer of the Jewish temple? (Baba Bathra 133a, Gittin 57a - Soncino editors identified as "Agrippa who appears elsewhere in the Talmud under this name." V. Buchler, ibid.)

Notsri

I think it's likely unnecessary to go beyond the rabbinic texts themselves to find the inspiration behind the Toledot's account of Jesus' flight. There is, for instance, a long-standing rabbinic tradition wherein the name of God was believed to have been imbued with supernatural powers, granting an individual the ability to fly, among other things. E.g.:

...Abishai pronounced the Divine Name, by means of which David was held suspended between heaven and earth... Abishai then pronounced the Divine Name and brought him down (b. Sanh. 95a).

That being said, then, in my opinion the Toledot's story is itself probably based directly on a tradition preserved in the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan to Numbers 31:8:

And it was when Balaam the sinner saw Phinehas the priest pursuing him, he made words of magic and flew in the air of heaven. Immediately Phinehas recalled the great and holy Name and flew after him and seized him by his head and brought him down...

stephan huller

That is very interesting. The stories are closely related which is not surprising given Balaam is often a codeword or a substitute for Jesus. The question then is what is the correct dating of Pseudo-Yonathan? What is the ultimate source of these narratives involving the divine Name, cutting the flesh and magic?

mountainman

The claim that Rabbinic evidence for a Supernatural Jesus is to be found in pagan sources dated to the rule of the Philosopher-Emperor Marcus Aurelius, author of "Meditations" - is it serious?

stephan huller

Two words - Joseph Pandera