mountainman

Here are the small number of references to the actual name "christian" in the new testament -- not just Paul's part ....


The name -- "christians" -- is only mentioned in a few places in the NT as listed above. The reader of the NT at that point is given a name of the new and strange national religion, which in at least 90 other verses in the NT is not mentioned by name, but is set in principles to be not Jewish and not greek (ie: gentile).

The NT presents "new christian delegates" going out into the nations of the gentiles (ie: Greeks) and jews in order to convert these nations, to another superior nation of monotheistic belief. Early christianity apparently captured the imagination of thousands and thousands of followers, at some stage during the "early christian origins" period.

If the reader of the NT is not already christian, then let's assume they are either Jewish or "Gentile". Perhaps the term "gentile" might also be applied to travelling Indian merchants (eg: AThomas). When a non-christian prospective convert reads the NT they are surprised to find that "christianity" is not a religion like their own. What is it like? Well, it is certainly nothing like the jews or the gentile religion. This seems clear enough from the 90 references above.


I am arguing that the authors of the NT made a large number of references to the "gentiles" (Greeks) and "jews" presumeably of the Roman empire at some unknown century, possibly the 1st, possibly the 2nd or even later. The NT presents "the christians" as contrasted against the "gentiles" and "jews" as a new splinter group emerging from the milieu.

Of course they did. Additionally however they (the authors of the NT) defined the emergent group (labelled and named christians) by their environment of nations into which they were emerging. In this environment of the Roman empire, the NT makes constant references to "the Jews" and "the gentiles" as names of other groups in the milieu, out of which christian converts would be drawn.

The implication is that at one point (BCE) we start with "gentiles" and "jews" and then lo and behold we now have "gentiles" and "jews" and "christians". The story of the NT was preserved by this third-in-line religious group, which everyone conjectures expanded over the course of the centuries, until by a great stroke of pure luck and fortune, the religion was embraced by Constantine who raised it to become the official state Roman religion.

I am investigating to what extent the gentiles (and Jews) of the NT represent christian otherness:

Toto

But Christians did not view Jews and gentiles as other, but as potential converts (at least until the Jews were demonized as Christ killers, but even then there was the possibility of conversion.) I don't think you quite understand what is going on here.

mountainman

I am taking the modern conception of the psychology of "otherness" to the new testament literature and asking did the authors of the NT use the concept of "otherness" to tell the story of emergent christian history. And if so, how?

I find that the term "gentiles" is used by these NT authors as a framework for "otherness" against which the concept of the "emergent christian nation" is contrasted. As more and more "gentiles" converted to "christianity" there were more christians and less "gentiles".

It's at least partly psychological. The OP is suggesting that the "heathens" or "gentiles" were in fact the Greeks (the Hellenistic cultural milieu) in the Roman empire who had enjoyed the ancient historical dominance in the realms of "religious authority" in the Roman empire. These same gentiles had all the majestic ancient temples and shrines spread all over the Roman empire. They were the idolators: fit to be converted to christianity. IMO the "gentiles" (Greeks) may be arguably presented and perceived (in combination with the Jews) as the milieu of the "christian otherness" (that group which is not christian).

Just as a matter of interest, do you happen to think that anyone quite understands what is going on with the actual ancient history associated with the authorship and transmission of the new testament literature to the fourth century and the waiting arms of the monotheist Roman State Officialdom? I look at the assessment of scholarship on the century of authorship of the NT and I clearly see no consensus. Who really understands which century? You tell me. Over.

gentleexit

I don't think Gentiles (the generic 'other' which is the latin sense no?) and Jews/Heretics were lumped together for the first centuries after Jesus. The latter were believers of a sort, of the wrong sort but in a different class from the mass of complete unbelievers. The distinction is important because there is a clear change after Constantine. Then Jew went "other". You see this process of separation in the discussions of Easter at Nicea right through Chrysostom's later words.

There was another driver too - to be Jewish no longer meant Philo and Septuagint. It meant Rabbi's and Hebrew. Christianity leapt apart and was let go.

mountainman

In a very real literary sense the Gentiles are mentioned more than 90 times in the New Testament and in 21 of those instances the Jews are additionally mentioned in combination with the Gentiles. The (presumeably) "christian" author(s) of the NT certainly seemed to want to repeatedly lump them together -- in a literary context.

The Others.

Does the NT provide any evidence of mass movements and conversions from "the gentiles" (etc) to "the christians" in the early period before the fourth century? Or do we rely upon Eusebius for this? The "early christian population demographics generally bandied around are usually significant.

I wonder whether the new testament sold itself to the "gentiles" or whether it was the magnetic personalities of the "early christian practitioners" who ended up attracting converts from the gentiles (and/or Jews)? Does the NT literature itself tend to compel readers to "convert" from being a "stranger" to christianity, into becoming a "christian"? Was it written with this function in mind?

mountainman

Substituting the term "pagan" for "gentile

We all know there were no pagans before the fourth century, because the term appears to have been invented by christians of that epoch to describe those people surrounding them in the Roman empire who were not "christian". The "pagans" were the "christian other" from the fourth century onwards, in a similar sense that the term "gentiles" is presented as a description for a group of people "other than christians" by the authors of the NT.

In post #10 I listed out the 90 odd references to "gentiles" in the NT. The following list presents the same 90 references from the NT, but I have replaced the term "gentile(s)" with the term "pagan(s)".

Would anyone like to comment on whether the underlying meaning of the new testament is altered at all by this super-global-replacement?

Matthew 4:15
"Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the pagans—

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the pagans or enter any town of the Samaritans.

Matthew 10:18
On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the pagans.

Matthew 20:19
and will turn him over to the pagans to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

Matthew 20:25
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the pagans lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

Mark 10:33
"We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the pagans,

Mark 10:42
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the pagans lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

Luke 2:32
a light for revelation to the pagans and for glory to your people Israel."

Luke 18:32
He will be handed over to the pagans. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.

Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the pagans until the times of the pagans are fulfilled.

Luke 22:25
Jesus said to them, "The kings of the pagans lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.

Acts 4:27
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the pagans and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the pagans and their kings and before the people of Israel.

Acts 10:28
He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a pagan or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.

Acts 10:45
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the pagans.

Acts 11:1
[ Peter Explains His Actions ] The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the pagans also had received the word of God.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the pagans repentance unto life."

Acts 13:16
Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you pagans who worship God, listen to me!

Acts 13:26
"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing pagans, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the pagans.

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the pagans, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

Acts 13:48
When the pagans heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 14:1
[ In Iconium ] At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and pagans believed.

Acts 14:2
But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the pagans and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 14:5
There was a plot afoot among the pagans and Jews, together with their leaders, to mistreat them and stone them.

Acts 14:27
On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the pagans.

Acts 15:3
The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the pagans had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.

Acts 15:5
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The pagans must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

Acts 15:7
After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the pagans might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

Acts 15:12
The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the pagans through them.

Acts 15:14
Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the pagans a people for himself.

Acts 15:17
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the pagans who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'

Acts 15:19
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the pagans who are turning to God.

Acts 15:22
[ The Council's Letter to pagan Believers ] Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.

Acts 15:23
With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the pagan believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.

Acts 18:6
But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the pagans."

Acts 21:11
Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the pagans.' "

Acts 21:19
Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the pagans through his ministry.

Acts 21:21
They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the pagans to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

Acts 21:25
As for the pagan believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

Acts 22:21
"Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the pagans.' "

Acts 26:17
I will rescue you from your own people and from the pagans. I am sending you to them

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the pagans also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 26:23
that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the pagans."

Acts 28:28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the pagans, and they will listen!"

Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the pagans to the obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 1:13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other pagans.

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the pagan.

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the pagan;

Romans 2:10
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the pagan.

Romans 2:14
(Indeed, when pagans, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the pagans because of you."

Romans 3:9
[ No One is Righteous ] What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and pagans alike are all under sin.

Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of pagans too? Yes, of pagans too,

Romans 9:24
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the pagans?

Romans 9:30
[ Israel's Unbelief ] What then shall we say? That the pagans, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and pagan—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the pagans to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the pagans, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Romans 11:13
I am talking to you pagans. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the pagans, I make much of my ministry

Romans 11:25
[ All Israel Will Be Saved ] I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the pagans has come in.

Romans 15:9
so that the pagans may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the pagans; I will sing hymns to your name."

Romans 15:10
Again, it says, "Rejoice, O pagans, with his people."

Romans 15:11
And again, "Praise the Lord, all you pagans, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."

Romans 15:12
And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the pagans will hope in him."

Romans 15:14
[ Paul the Minister to the pagans ] I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another.

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the pagans with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the pagans might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:18
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the pagans to obey God by what I have said and done—

Romans 15:27
They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the pagans have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Romans 16:4
They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the pagans are grateful to them.

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to pagans,

2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from pagans; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.

Galatians 1:16
to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the pagans, I did not consult any man,

Galatians 2:2
I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the pagans. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.

Galatians 2:7
On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the pagans, just as Peter had been to the Jews.

Galatians 2:8
For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the pagans.

Galatians 2:9
James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the pagans, and they to the Jews.

Galatians 2:12
Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the pagans. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the pagans because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

Galatians 2:14
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a pagan and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force pagans to follow Jewish customs?

Galatians 2:15
"We who are Jews by birth and not 'pagan sinners'

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the pagans by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the pagans through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11
[ One in Christ ] Therefore, remember that formerly you who are pagans by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)—

Ephesians 3:1
[ Paul the Preacher to the pagans ] For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you pagans—

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the pagans are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:8
Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the pagans the unsearchable riches of Christ,

Ephesians 4:17
[ Living as Children of Light ] So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the pagans do, in the futility of their thinking.

Colossians 1:27
To them God has chosen to make known among the pagans the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 Thessalonians 2:16
in their effort to keep us from speaking to the pagans so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

1 Timothy 2:7
And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the pagans.

2 Timothy 4:17
But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the pagans might hear it. And I was delivered from the lion's mouth.

Revelation 11:2
But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the pagans. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Does this substitution change anything significant?
If so, what does it change?

avi

When would that have been? So far as I am aware, the oldest quasi-monotheistic religion, one which influenced all existing religions, particularly Judaism, is the faith associated with belief in Ahura Mazda. This uncreated supreme deity had been assigned, by Zoroaster, the task of creating all the other, lesser gods....(son of god?).
With regard to "Gentiles", versus "heathen", versus "pagans", are we not perhaps confounding religious dogma with ethnicity, or more properly, ethnic hostilities? To me, without knowing the true etymological distinctions, "Pagan" suggests someone non-religious yet Caucasian, though probably not a member of the Semitic tribes. Gentile implies Caucasian, and religious, but not Jewish, nor a follower of Judaism, and "heathen" implies neither Caucasian, nor accordingly, religious, since only Caucasians were imagined as capable of becoming followers of Judaism--> Christianity. Is there any evidence for Judaism among the non-Caucasian Africans prior to the capture of Jerusalem by the Babylonians?

gentleexit

Well, we're really in a language, not an ethnic mix. You have Hebrew, Greek (ethnos used in Septuagint), Latin (gentile for ethnos, pagan) and Gothic (heathen).

Gentile for ethnos: did introduce a greater sense of outsider - gentiles were not just nations but other nations.

Heathen for ethnos: you read that "heathen" came from the same sense as "pagan", country or heath dwellers, the hangers-on and was coined for a Gothic bible, a translation that post dates Constantine. As the fourth century progresses, to be other than the Christian nation is not just different or even outside but definitively negative. Pagan/heathen are pejorative.

The road from ethnos to heathen goes from the plural "nations" to a singular "other". How anything not Christian is its exact opposite, rather than the many different ways faced by the Jews.

The other word worth considering is "Jew". Who was a Jew? Late fourth century, it a was Rabbi-following, Septuagint rejector. But go back and you have figures as distinct as Jesus and Philo. The sense of "Christian" as absolutely not Jewish in a broad sense also crystallizes in the fourth century.

The four gospels clearly speak to Septuagint believers. A "true gentile" wouldn't understand their arguments or resonance with older texts. And the notion of "convert the nations" etc. isn't new to the Christian sect. Other Judaisms grew through conversion and continued to but given the nature of their arguments, it's likely to be a conversion from one to another rather than of any "true outsider".

Toto

NO. Gentiles are never "other than Christian." The authors of the NT always use gentile to refer to "other than Jewish." Paul is the apostle to those who are not Jewish.

It is completely pointless.

And you completely misunderstand the whole idea of the other. If defining someone as the Other is part of your self-definition, you can't try to convert them - because then you would lose that part of your self definition. But Christians were always trying to convert other people.

mountainman

Dear Toto,

Do we know in fact whether the NT was written either by "Jews", or by "Gentiles" or by "Christians"? Dont we make the assumption it was written by "christians" who are no longer "jews" and who had a mission to convert the "jews" and the "gentiles" to renounce their previous erroneous philosophy, mathematics, science, geometry, metaphysics, logic, tradition, customs and and "RELIGION" to become the proverbial "chrestos" christians.

Here is a cite from The First Christian Theologians by Gillian Rosemary Evans (2004) which has a section entitled The "Jew" as the Christian "Other" ....

The OP in this thread is examining the extent to which, in using the term "gentile", the NT authors are presenting also The "Hellene" as the Christian "Other". Do you understand that? Do you think this is a "valid" question? I have cited the data in the NT - we have 90 odd references.

When people argue about "early christianity" I think they need to be sure they are talking about either the first three centuries, or the fourth century and after, since the political conditions were different in those two separate epochs.


As a matter of interest, in the following pages of the above book the author goes on to state the following, which is very relevant.


Best wishes,


Pete