Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 12:59 AM

I am aware of the history of the term 'ruler of the angels' in Philo, but when you think about it - how didn't someone come up with the idea that Jacob died? After all, you have to be dead to see God.

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10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[a] stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.[b] 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”

16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”

18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel,[c] though the city used to be called Luz.

20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the Lord[d] will be my God 22 and[e] this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”

Orlov finds a number of texts which say that Jacob saw God. But are there any which said that his sleep was death or like death?

Tenorikuma · 04-22-2013, 02:33 AM

Quote:

After all, you have to be dead to see God.

It sounds to me like you're reading Christian doctrine into an earlier myth that had no explicit afterlife teachings.

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 08:22 AM

The closest I can get is John of Damascus's citation of some lost work of Philo:

Quote:

"Sleep is a thing to teach us to meditate upon death, and a shadow and outline of the resurrection which is hereafter to follow."

That is to say not that close at all.

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 08:30 AM

Clement here compares sleep to death in a manner that is greatly influenced by Philo however I don't think it crosses the line yet to proving my thesis:

Quote:

Jacob slept on the ground, and a stone served him for a pillow; and then was he counted worthy to behold the vision--that was above man. And in conformity with reason, the bed which we use must be simple and frugal, and so constructed that, by avoiding the extremes [of too much indulgence and too much endurance], it may be comfortable: if it is warm, to protect us; if cold, to warm us. But let not the couch be elaborate, and let it have smooth feet; for elaborate turnings form occasionally paths for creeping things which twine themselves about the incisions of the work, and do not slip off.

Especially is a moderate softness in the bed suitable for manhood; for sleep ought not to be for the total enervation of the body, but for its relaxation. Wherefore I say that it ought not to be allowed to come on us for the sake of indulgence, but in order to rest from action. We must therefore sleep so as to be easily awaked. For it is said, "Let your loins be girt about, and your lamps burning; and ye yourselves like to men that watch for their lord, that when he returns from the marriage, and comes and knocks, they may straightway open to him. Blessed are those servants whom the Lord, when He cometh, shall find watching." For there is no use of a sleeping man, as there is not of a dead man. Wherefore we ought often to rise by night and bless God. For blessed are they who watch for Him, and so make themselves like the angels, whom we call "watchers." But a man asleep is worth nothing, any more than if he were not alive.

But he who has the light watches, "and darkness seizes not on him," nor sleep, since darkness does not. He that is illuminated is therefore awake towards God; and such an one lives. "For what was made in Him was life." "Blessed is the man," says Wisdom, "who shall hear me, and the man who shall keep my ways, watching at my doors, daily observing the posts of my entrances." "Let us not then sleep, as do others, but let us watch," says the Scripture, "and be sober. For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that be drunken, are drunken in the night," that is, in the darkness of ignorance. "But let us who are of the day be sober. For ye are all children of the light, and children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of the darkness." But whoever of us is most solicitous for living the true life, and for entertaining noble sentiments, will keep awake for as long time as possible, reserving to himself only what in this respect is conducive to his own health; and that is not very usual.

But devotion to activity begets an everlasting vigil after toils. Let not food weigh us down, but lighten us; that we may be injured as little as possible by sleep, as those that swim with weights hanging to them are weighed down. But, on the other hand, let temperance raise us as from the abyss beneath to the enterprises of wakefulness. For the oppression of sleep is like death, which forces us into insensibility, cutting off the light by the closing of the eyelids. Let not us, then, who are sons of the true light, close the door against this light; but turning in on ourselves, illumining the eyes of the hidden man, and gazing on the truth itself, and receiving its streams, let us clearly and intelligibly reveal such dreams as are true. [Instructor 2.78.3]

But don't you think he is referencing some heightened state achieved in the Alexandrian nocturnal mysteries?

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 08:43 AM

I don't know if it is specifically relevant to the discussion but:

Quote:

And the practiser of virtue, Jacob, seizing on this apprehension, confesses in express words that, "This is no other than the house of God,"{3}{#ge 28:17.} an expression equivalent to, The house of God is not this thing, or anything which can be made the subject of ocular demonstration, or, in short, anything which comes under the province of the outward senses, but is invisible, destitute of all specific form, only to be comprehended by the soul as soul. [De migratione Abrahami 5]

How does one get to this state where someone can have this vision? Philo says that Isaac had this by nature, Abraham attained this (I forget how) but that Jacob ascended or worked his way to this state through 'practice.' It was at Bethel that he achieved this vision when he chose 'God' as his Lord. Still not there yet.

Similarly with this related statement in Philo:

Quote:

And Philo interprets Hagar to mean "sojourning." For it is said in connection with this, "Be not much with a strange woman." Sarah he interprets to mean "my princedom." He, then, who has received previous training is at liberty to approach to wisdom, which is supreme, from which grows up the race of Israel. These things show that that wisdom can be acquired through instruction, to which Abraham attained, passing from the contemplation of heavenly things to the faith and righteousness which are according to God. And Isaac is shown to mean "self-taught;" wherefore also he is discovered to be a type of Christ. He was the husband of one wife Rebecca, which they translate "Patience." And Jacob is said to have consorted with several, his name being interpreted" Exerciser." And exercises are engaged in by means of many and various dogmas. Whence, also, he who is really "endowed with the power of seeing" is called Israel, having much experience, and being fit for exercise.

Something else may also have been shown by the three patriarchs, namely, that the sure seal of knowledge is composed of nature, of education, and exercise.

You may have also another image of what has been said, in Thamar sitting by the way, and presenting the appearance of a harlot, on whom the studious Judas (whose name is interpreted "powerful"), who left nothing unexamined and uninvestigated, looked; and turned aside to her, preserving his profession towards God. Wherefore also, when Sarah was jealous at Hagar being preferred to her, Abraham, as choosing only what was profitable in secular philosophy, said, "Behold, thy maid is in thine hands: deal with her as it pleases thee;" manifestly meaning, "I embrace secular culture as youthful, and a handmaid; but thy knowledge I honour and reverence as true wife." And Sarah afflicted her; which is equivalent to corrected and admonished her. It has therefore been well said, "My son, despise not thou the correction of God; nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him. For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth." And the foresaid Scriptures, when examined in other places, will be seen to exhibit other mysteries. We merely therefore assert here, that philosophy is characterized by investigation into truth and the nature of things (this is the truth of which the Lord Himself said, "I am the truth"; that, again, the preparatory training for rest in Christ exercises the mind, rouses the intelligence, and begets an inquiring shrewdness, by means of the true philosophy, which the initiated possess, having found it, or rather received it, from the truth itself. [Strom 1.173.6]

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-22-2013, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am aware of the history of the term 'ruler of the angels' in Philo, but when you think about it - how didn't someone come up with the idea that Jacob died? After all, you have to be dead to see God.

After all??? You might try telling that to Job who feared that once he was dead he would be wholly unable to see God. And even in Paul, one must first be resurrected to see God. Nor, according to the Matthean Jesus do the pure in heart have to be dead to see God.

I wonder if instead of spending your time doing these endless and often fallaciously grounded speculations, you'd be better off investing it in learning to read the language that the texts you misinterpret and misread were written in.

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 09:07 AM

The Book of Job isn't on the same level as the Pentateuch. So what the hell is your problem? Yes you have superior skills in the Greek language. I don't see what this has to do with the question of whether or not it is possible to see God and live. The question of whether Jacob actually saw God on the heavenly ladder is one that a lot of people have tackled. The question of what Philo believed Jacob saw on the ladder is one which has generated a lot of debate. I think that Jacob had to have seen God because of what Philo argues later about Jacob switching changing divine powers - the Lord to God.

If you don't like what I am writing then put me on ignore.

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Job, unlike Philo, is canonical.

This is going to be an interesting argument to develop during work hours (not even I can hope to tackle this while arranging for corporate housing in Dallas for 31 people). But let's start with MY assumptions.

The Pentateuch was on a different level of sanctity than Job. As such ignore Job. Not relevant to the discussion.

This should prove interesting. I am really busy with work so let's have a civil discussion. I just found out my archrival just had his people evicted from their corporate housing in Las Vegas and now they want to work for me. So I might have to respond in cryptic one line statements like the one above. I am not retired, nor am I unemployed. I am busy today.

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 09:39 AM

I start with the assumption that the Samaritans are closer to the original tradition and many of the later specifically Jewish sectarian groups are essentially a heresy. That doesn't mean that Jews didn't cite other scriptural writings. But it is very rare to see Philo cite the other writings. His focus is on the Pentateuch because I assume, he like the Pharisees, Sadducees and Karaites assumed it had a different level of sanctity.

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-22-2013, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The Book of Job isn't on the same level as the Pentateuch.

I have no idea what that means. Job, unlike Philo, is canonical. And it is evidence that Jews did not believe that one had to be dead to see God.

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So what the hell is your problem?

If there is a problem that lies with me and not with you and your commitment to your geo rather than to scholarship, it's that you continue to make sweeping statements that you posture as fully informed when they are anything but-- and how nasty and petulant you get when it's shown that your reach exceeds your grasp, and how you will equivocate in order to avoid admitting that your claims are ill founded and wrong (note the change of the argument from one has to be dead to see god to no one sees god and lives)

Let's stick with the validity of your claim rather than the nature of my person or my motives, shall we?

Does the Biblical witness really say that one has to be dead to see god?

Jeffrey

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04-22-2013, 09:07 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Book of Job isn't on the same level as the Pentateuch. So what the hell is your problem? Yes you have superior skills in the Greek language. I don't see what this has to do with the question of whether or not it is possible to see God and live. The question of whether Jacob actually saw God on the heavenly ladder is one that a lot of people have tackled. The question of what Philo believed Jacob saw on the ladder is one which has generated a lot of debate. I think that Jacob had to have seen God because of what Philo argues later about Jacob switching changing divine powers - the Lord to God. If you don't like what I am writing then put me on ignore.

04-22-2013, 09:39 AM	#9
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I start with the assumption that the Samaritans are closer to the original tradition and many of the later specifically Jewish sectarian groups are essentially a heresy. That doesn't mean that Jews didn't cite other scriptural writings. But it is very rare to see Philo cite the other writings. His focus is on the Pentateuch because I assume, he like the Pharisees, Sadducees and Karaites assumed it had a different level of sanctity.

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