Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 12-19-2007, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Would a simpler answer be that Christianity really did originate in Rome, or other parts of the empire and not, as per tradition, in Palestine?

Certainly not in Rome.

Why not? All this so-called "imperial correspondence"
would have been in Rome, and that is the only evidence
being cited by this ruthless bunch of ecclesiastical
documentarians. Constantine liberated Rome 312 CE.

Plenty of time for a Beta_Site before Nicaea.

Quote:

Pliny's letter to Trajan indicates, if nothing else, that he did not discover Christians until getting to his province of Asia Minor. The whole thrust of his letter is "Your majesty, this is how I propose to deal with these fellows. Is this okay with you?" Trajan's reply is even milder in tone.
Pliny wrote in the early second century. So how could there have been multitudes of Christians burning down Rome, as the allegation in Tacitus, in the middle of the first century?

Something does not compute.

Try the postulate -- spoon fed to us by Eusebius,
via Constantine -- that the "nation of christians"
had a history before Rome became "liberated" by
you know who in 312 CE.

It is a postulate.
And there is no evidence for this postulate.

That's why any "history" based on this postulate
does not compute. It is an imaginary target.

We need to look at the archaeological citations
with a fresh perspective.

Best wishes,
\

Pete Brown

aa5874 · 12-19-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."

During my return flight from my bi-annual visit to Israel, I thought about the issue regarding a lack of credible evidence for Jerusalem as being the birth-place of Christianity.

So, I would like to know, if in fact, there is any physical evidence that would undermine the possibility that Christianity could have been a completely Roman product and that first century Jerusalem may have simply been, "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...".

Thanks.

And even if you unearth artifacts of Christianity, would those be the followers of Jesus of the NT, or some other Messiah or prophet, like those from Egypt and elsewhere.

"Wars of thew Jews" 2.13.4, "There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, which laid waste the happy state of the city no less than these murderes. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under the pretense of Divine Inspiration....."

"Wars of the Jews"2.13.5, "But there was an Egyptian false prophet tthat did the Jews more mischief than the former, for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him these he led round about from the wilder ness to the mount a which was called mount Olives and was ready to break in Jerusalem from that place....

Probably many persons regarded themselves as the Messiah or Christ and had thousands of followers but were completely different to the Jesus of the NT.

Minimalist · 12-19-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Anything is possible, no doubt, in the field of imagination. But it would require an extraordinary ingenuity to invent so many convincing minor details for the setting of so miscellaneous a subject-matter as that of these letters. It must be reckoned at least [as] a probability that Pliny was in the habit of advising or consoling his friends on occasion with appropriate litterae curiosius scriptae, and that these formed one basis of the collection. (11f)

An interesting thought but, if later christians invented these documents, why would they indicate that many of the accused renounced their faith and swore to the imperial cult? If I am going to go through the trouble of writing a forgery I am damn well going to make certain that it supports my particular mythology. By the time of Eusebius, the idea of brave christians dying for their faith had to have been somewhat ingrained.

If Pliny's letter said "Your majesty, these Christians told me to go fuck myself and my empire as I cast them to the lions" I would be more inclined to think they were written by christian storytellers.

dog-on · 12-20-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Anything is possible, no doubt, in the field of imagination. But it would require an extraordinary ingenuity to invent so many convincing minor details for the setting of so miscellaneous a subject-matter as that of these letters. It must be reckoned at least [as] a probability that Pliny was in the habit of advising or consoling his friends on occasion with appropriate litterae curiosius scriptae, and that these formed one basis of the collection. (11f)

An interesting thought but, if later Christians invented these documents, why would they indicate that many of the accused renounced their faith and swore to the imperial cult? If I am going to go through the trouble of writing a forgery I am damn well going to make certain that it supports my particular mythology. By the time of Eusebius, the idea of brave Christians dying for their faith had to have been somewhat ingrained.

If Pliny's letter said "Your majesty, these Christians told me to go fuck myself and my empire as I cast them to the lions" I would be more inclined to think they were written by Christian storytellers.

Pliny could have been speaking about the Marcionites in Asia Minor, or any other of the many "Christian" groups seemingly cropping up around the empire.

Regardless, Asia Minor is definitely not Palestine...

Minimalist · 12-20-2007, 01:40 PM

Certainly a possibility. Unfortunately, we do not have correspondence from the Roman governors of Palestine in the early second century. We do have Pliny's letter and beggars can't be choosers.

mountainman · 12-22-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Pliny could have been speaking about the Marcionites in Asia Minor, or any other of the many "Christian" groups seemingly cropping up around the empire.

Many other "Christian groups"?
Has this question got the word "archaeology" in it?

Have a good long look at some
authentic evidence for a cult

The greatest healing cult in existence
for the period 500 BCE to 500 CE.

Archaeological evidence for this cult?
The word is UNAMBIGUOUS.

Get the drift?

Best wishes

Pete Brown

schilling.klaus · 01-13-2008, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Would a simpler answer be that Christianity really did originate in Rome, or other parts of the empire and not, as per tradition, in Palestine?

Of course it didn't originate in or near Jerusalem.
The story had to be placed there for fulfilling Scripture.

Quote:

Now, what should this information tell us regarding the alleged Jerusalem group, in Paul's 'Galatians'?

The Jerusalem group iwith its pilars s doubtlessly a completely ahistorical fraud,
invented as needed by the Catholic Church in order to establish Apostolic Succession
and thus justifying its own claim to Power.

Klaus Schilling

schilling.klaus · 01-13-2008, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Certainly not in Rome. Pliny's letter to Trajan indicates

that letter is fraudulent forgery

Klaus Schilling

spin · 01-13-2008, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schilling.klaus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Certainly not in Rome. Pliny's letter to Trajan indicates

that letter is fraudulent forgery

You may be right, but on what grounds do you say that it is "fraudulent forgery"? I'll happily argue that the Tacitus passage is rotten, but Pliny?

spin

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12-20-2007, 01:40 PM	#15
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Certainly a possibility. Unfortunately, we do not have correspondence from the Roman governors of Palestine in the early second century. We do have Pliny's letter and beggars can't be choosers.

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