Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-01-2012, 08:00 PM

I thought this was interesting. The original Arabic text (Severus died c. 987 CE) is already translated into French. Here is my rough computer assisted translation of that text into English:

Quote:

Après la descente du Saint-Esprit sur les saints et vertueux disciples, le jour de la Pentecôte, lorsque tous ceux qui avaient cru en Jésus-Christ reçurent le baptême, Hannah, mère de saint Marc, s'étant présentée avec son jeune fils Jean devant la vierge très-pure sainte Marie, mère de Dieu, elle la pria de lui conférer la grâce du baptême, à elle et à son fils Jean. La vierge Marie, cédant à leur désir, commanda à saint Jean, le disciple bien-aimé, l'évangéliste de les baptiser tous les deux, Jean et sa mère Hannah, et à Tins tant même ils furent baptisés au nom du Përe et du Fils, et du Saint-Esprit. Le nom de Jean fut alors changé en celui de Marc (1), et Hannah , sa mère, reçut celui de Marie, Pendant que la main de saint Jean le bien-aimé était levée au-dessus de la tète de saint Marc, pour le baptiser, Notre-Dame, la Vierge-Marie, aperçut la main du fils unique, Jésus-Christ, étendue sur la tète de saint Marc , comme pour témoigner que celui qui le baptisait était notre sauveur Jésus-Christ lui-même. Elle vit également le ciel s'entr'ouvrir , et le Saint-Esprit descendre sous la forme d'une colombe et se manifestant comme un vent doux et agréable, qui répandait une odeur des plus suaves et qui se trouvait accompagné d'un éclat resplendissant comme la couleur du feu. Le Saint-Esprit descendit ainsi visiblement sur la tête de saint Marc , et enveloppa tout son corps ; c'est pourquoi il fut rempli du Saint-Esprit dès ses plus tendres années. »

After the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the holy and virtuous disciples on the day of Pentecost, when all those who believed in Jesus Christ were baptized, Hannah, mother of Mark, having appeared with her young son John before the most blessed virgin Mary, mother of God, she begged her to give it the grace of baptism, she and her son John. The Virgin Mary, yielding to their desire, commanded St. John, the beloved disciple, the evangelist baptizing them both, John and his mother Hannah, and Tins same as they were baptized in the name of father and son, and Holy Spirit. The name John was then changed to that of Mark (1), and Hannah, his mother, was that of Mary, While the hand of St. John the Beloved was lifted above the head of St. Mark, for baptize, our Lady, the Virgin Mary, saw the hand of his only son, Jesus Christ, lying on the head of St. Mark, as if to testify that he who was baptized our Saviour Jesus Christ himself. She also saw the sky about to open, and the Holy Spirit descending as a dove and manifesting as a mild and pleasant wind, which diffused a smell of the sweetest and who was accompanied by a burst resplendent as the color of fire. The Holy Spirit descended and visibly on the head of St. Mark, and wrapped his body, which is why he was filled with the Holy Spirit from his earliest years.

Does anyone else think that this tradition goes back to the primitive 'fire appeared on the water' baptism tradition known to Justin and others - only here Jesus baptized John not the other way around.

Huon · 03-02-2012, 12:40 AM

My own revision :

Quote:

After the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the holy and virtuous disciples on the day of Pentecost, when all those who believed in Jesus Christ were baptized, Hannah, mother of Mark, having appeared with her young son John before the most blessed virgin Mary, mother of God, she begged her to give her the grace of baptism, she and her son John. The Virgin Mary, yielding to their desire, commanded St. John, the beloved disciple, the evangelist baptizing them both, John and his mother Hannah, and in Tins they were baptized in the name of father and son, and Holy Spirit. The name John was then changed to that of Mark (1), and Hannah, his mother, received the name of Mary, While the hand of St. John the Beloved was lifted above the head of St. Mark, for baptize, our Lady, the Virgin Mary, saw the hand of his only son, Jesus Christ, lying on the head of St. Mark, as if to testify that he who was baptizing was our Saviour Jesus Christ himself. She also saw the sky about to open, and the Holy Spirit descending as a dove and manifesting as a mild and pleasant wind, which diffused a smell of the sweetest and who was accompanied by a burst resplendent as the color of fire. The Holy Spirit descended visibly on the head of St. Mark, and wrapped his body, which is why he was filled with the Holy Spirit from his earliest years.

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 12:47 AM

J'apprécie vraiment votre aide!

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 12:49 AM

Here is the original source for all of this:

http://www.archive.org/stream/homlie.../n257/mode/2up

Huon · 03-02-2012, 05:40 AM

This story looks like other stories reproduced in the Golden Legend of Jacobus de Voragine. These texts show the level of the religious thought at the moment when they were written. They do not bring any serious infos about the saints.

Roger Pearse · 03-02-2012, 06:29 AM

Thank you, Stephan. I think 72 pages is a bit beyond my current capabilities, but I am very glad you are looking at this. I had never heard of this work.

According to the preface, the author is not the same as Severus of al-Ashmunein (Sawirus ibn Mukaffa), but another Severus of the same time period.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 07:26 AM

Yes I have figured out that the author must actually have lived a little earlier than the bishop of al'Ashmunein

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 07:28 AM

Huon,

Just to put things in perspective. The scholarly study of the Samaritan people is mostly based on a chronicle developed in the fourteenth century in Arabic by a certain Abul Fath based on earlier sources. The visionary quality of the current text is only developed by the author because of the contemporary crisis it was facing - the loss of the body and throne of St Mark.

andrewcriddle · 03-05-2012, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

My own revision :

Quote:

... saw the hand of his only son, Jesus Christ, lying on the head of St. Mark, as if to testify that he who was baptizing was our Saviour Jesus Christ himself. She also saw the sky about to open, and the Holy Spirit descending as a dove and manifesting as a mild and pleasant wind, which diffused a smell of the sweetest and who was accompanied by a burst resplendent as the color of fire...

In context it should probably be

Quote:

..saw the hand of her only son, Jesus Christ..

Andrew Criddle

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03-02-2012, 12:47 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	J'apprécie vraiment votre aide!

03-02-2012, 12:49 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is the original source for all of this: http://www.archive.org/stream/homlie.../n257/mode/2up

03-02-2012, 05:40 AM	#5
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	This story looks like other stories reproduced in the Golden Legend of Jacobus de Voragine. These texts show the level of the religious thought at the moment when they were written. They do not bring any serious infos about the saints.

03-02-2012, 06:29 AM	#6
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Thank you, Stephan. I think 72 pages is a bit beyond my current capabilities, but I am very glad you are looking at this. I had never heard of this work. According to the preface, the author is not the same as Severus of al-Ashmunein (Sawirus ibn Mukaffa), but another Severus of the same time period. All the best, Roger Pearse

03-02-2012, 07:26 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes I have figured out that the author must actually have lived a little earlier than the bishop of al'Ashmunein

03-02-2012, 07:28 AM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Huon, Just to put things in perspective. The scholarly study of the Samaritan people is mostly based on a chronicle developed in the fourteenth century in Arabic by a certain Abul Fath based on earlier sources. The visionary quality of the current text is only developed by the author because of the contemporary crisis it was facing - the loss of the body and throne of St Mark.

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