Amos

Exactly and during this violence the new world is created and it is only after this kind of violence that the infinite peace is found (Krishnamurti missed this al together).

This, then, is why Jews cannot have a homeland of their own but must find their home in their own heritage = Is-ra-el. This concept is much like the aboriginal heritage proclaimed by the Canadian Indian that we don't seem to understand.

Volker.Doormann

Violence does create violence and nothing else. The world is our wold; we have only this one. People who are thinking about to create a new world, are ignorant about the reason of violence, and ignorant about the reality. There never will be peace in this world, because this word is imperfect. This word is a trash can. If all people in this world would stop their violence against each other, an there would only one new born terrorist suppressing the world, there would no peace in this world. And there will born imperfect people all the time. Peace in this world is a fiction. Peace is a state of the individual, that is still. Mind is still. Only perception of that, what is, without judge, without a busy analyzing mind, without a mind waiting for peace and ignore the other, because he is the other. It is a great mistake to think, that the missing homeland and this IsraEl is exclusive for Jews. You can read in the Gilgamesh Epic from Sumer, that the search for this homeland is well known prior to the development of the Semitic culture in Mesopotamia. Exact the belief, that this Exodus to homeland is for Jews only has created that violence, from that Krishnamurti has spoken about. Born into a nation or born into religion or religious culture means nothing. This education is a cloth of the character, which is also a cloth of the soul. The myths of the bible have parabelized this outer cloth of the 'religious' mind as part of the body as 'Egypt' from which the souls must escape to find homeland. This painful process, which each individual - and not Jews only - must realize, is designed in the Torah myth as IsraEl = 'He, who struggles with god'. It is a very individual process, not a political process commanded by the specific religions and their (power) claims. Homeland is a spritual homeland, not a place in this world. No need to be violent in this world.

Volker

Amos

Exactly, and this "struggle" is what Krishnamurti called violence. The new world to be enjoyed will have been created during our involutionary period that ends (or it would not be involutionary) in the crisis moment when the new world is found. This new world is the same old world, yes indeed, but now seen from a different perspective.

I would never say that this "missing homeland" is exclusive for Jews but since the spiritual Israel is supposed to be their homeland the search for a geographic location is misleading and brings about the violence and chaos you so much resent.

In Catholicism we are to find unity with God and then leave the Church which at that time will have served its purpose as a means to the end. In others words, our religion is for sinners (we have the confessionals to prove this) and so salvation is not an existing part of our religion but our religion just prepares us for salvation and that's all. After that we are on our own.

RED DAVE

To Volker.Doormann:

The question of a Jewish homeland in Israel notwithstanding (I myself am not a Zionist), I find your tone of voice towards Jews ("stupdi"; "arrogant") to verge on antisemitism.

Coming as you do from Germany, I would watch my words a little more carefully.

RED DAVE

Volker.Doormann

My experience is, that such social morality claims directed to persons, or persons because the were born in a specific nation, not able to argue own thoughts on the subject in a discussion forum of Biblical Criticism & History, has no serious base.

Doctor X

Red Dave:

Watch yourself!! If you start asking him to justify his proclamations he will put you on "ignore" which, I gather, is like a really bad thing.

Nevertheless, you are correct in noting that language does not belong on Biblical Criticism & History.

--J.D.

RED DAVE

From Volker.Doormann:

My experience is that people who give elliptical, semi-incoherent answers to very pointed posts are hiding something. I find your use of words like "stupid" and "arrogant" with regard to Jews to be offensive. And I find your reply to be evasive. As a follower, I believe, of Krishnamurti, and seemingly concerned about violence, you should be aware that verbal violence is a real category.

And, as a German, you should be especially careful of your words with regard to Jews.

RED DAVE

Volker.Doormann

Your post contains again no argument to the subject, nor does it respect the forum rules.

You are on my ignore list.

Amos

Drop it Dave. Your point is made and if it makes you feel better, I love Judaism but don't like protestantism. Personally I don't know any Jews to either like of dislike but I know lots of protestants and I like them all.

Doctor X

Red Dave:

[Cue Audience--Ed.]

"Awwwwwwwwww. . . ."

Yes, sorry, Dave, we warned you, but you were put on the Volker--I'MNOTLISTENINGLA!LA!LA! Ignore List!

But, Johnnie? Tell Dave about his wonderful consolation prizes!

"A year's supply of Turtle Wax! Rice-a-Roni 'That San Francisco Treat!' The Hermeneutical Home Game!!"

--J.D.