Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Minimalist · 07-29-2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

So do you have any quotes or references for Dever's change of mind and subsequent agreement with Finkelstein?

I'd be willing to type some out of "Who Were The Early Israelites and Where did They Come From (or via: amazon.co.uk)", if it wouldn't violate any copyright standards of the site. Your call. I have the book. I'm not aware of this book being available online.

He has a paragraph which lists his points of agreement and remaining disagreement with Finkelstein. That book was copyrighted in 2003.

Since that time, Dever told Biblical Archaeology Review that his long study (50 years) of biblical archaeology has caused him to become an atheist. Quite a journey for a guy who started out as a minister.

Anyway, let me know if its okay. No trouble at all to type out his list.

Toto · 07-29-2007, 11:41 AM

Dever's book is searchable on Amazon (I added the link to your thread),

Fair use allows you to quote a paragraph or two. Type away.

Minimalist · 07-29-2007, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Dever's book is searchable on Amazon (I added the link to your thread),

Fair use allows you to quote a paragraph or two. Type away.

Hey, neat. Thanks, Toto. Anyway the excerpt doesn't seem to include page 153, (Chapter 9) so here goes with the typing. Dever is speaking specifically of Israel Finkelstein.....

Quote:

We agree largely on the following (and for that matter, so do most archaeologists.)

1. All older models are now obsolete; in future the archaeological data will prevail, even over textual sources, including the Hebrew Bible.

2. The recent Israeli surveys, plus a few excavations, provide the critical information.

3. All the current evidence points to a demographic surge in Iron I, especially in the hill country.

4. The highland settles were not foreign invaders, but came from somewhere within Canaanite society.

5. The overall settlement process was gradual, best understood within the framework of long-term, often cyclical patterns of Palestinian settlement-history (la longue duree).

6. There are significant continuities with Late Bronze Age material culture, as in the pottery; and also continuities from Iron I into Iron II (the period of the Israelite Monarchy).

7. The unique culture that emerges in the 12-11th century B.C. is not homogeneous and reflects an ethnic mix.

8. Environment and technology were factors in cultural changes on this horizon.

There are, however, several critical points of disagreement between Finkelstein and myself:

1- The exact origins within Canaan. Finkelstein favors a large-scale resedentarization of local pastoral nomads (similar to Alt), while I see a much more varied origin, with fewer nomads and more sedentarized peoples from the lowlands.

2- Chronology. Finkelstein dates the settlement mostly to the late 12th and even the 11th century B.C. (except for 'Isbet Sartah), while I believe that it began in the 13th century B.C.

3- Pottery. I find much more continuity than Finkelstein does with the overall Late Bronze Age Canaanite repertoire, regarding the differences in relative percentages of types as less significant.

4- Technology. I see technologies like terrace-building and cistern-digging as both more systemic (that is, more part of a larger socio-cultural pattern of innovation) and also more fundamental that Finkelstein sees them.

5- Ideology. I take a less materialistic, less deterministic approach, allowing a relatively greater role for sociologicl and ideological factors in cultural change (even though they are admittedly harder to specify archaeologically).

6- Ethnicity. I am much more optimistic than Finkelstein on the question of defining ethnicity in the archaeological record. In the end, Finkelstein is unable or unwilling to identify the hill country settlers; I believe that we can classify them as "proto-Israelites."

lpetrich · 07-29-2007, 03:39 PM

However, the expulsion of the Hyksos could have been dimly remembered as oral tradition, and revised along the way to become us poor picked-on Canaanites escaping from those nasty wicked Egyptians.

And from there, it would be revised even further to include the legendary hero Moses and the concerns of the Yahweh-only faction, like the wickedness of worshipping gods other than the One True God. And during the Babylonian Exile, it would have been seized on as reassurance that once before, we Israelites had escaped our captors and made it home.

Dreadnought · 07-29-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullwind

I have heard that Israelite-style houses have been found at Pi-Raamses. Is there any truth to this claim?

Never heard that claimed, but it isn't really surprising that someone would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 47.11

So Joseph settled his father and his brothers and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had ordered.

For obvious reasons Rameses is usually assumed to be Pi-Rameses which is believed to have been the site for the Hyksos capital of Avaris. Apparently Avaris was razed to the ground before Pi-Rameses was built.

This wikipedia article

The_Exodus however does say that such houses have been found. Having skimmed through it I find the article to be a bit questionable.

Gullwind · 07-29-2007, 06:04 PM

Thanks. I was in a discussion about this with someone who believes the Israelites were in Egypt based on those three-roomed houses and the Tempest stele (recording the 10 plagues). I disagreed, and he told me I didn't know enough about the subject for him to discuss it with him. What can I do, he's the owner of that particular board.

Sauron · 07-29-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

This wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus however does say that such houses have been found. Having skimmed through it I find the article to be a bit questionable.

No such article exists on Wikipedia, or the link is incorrect.

Also, it's not a 3-room house. The four-room house exists, but I'm not sure it can prove an Israelite presence.

Sauron · 07-29-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Since that time, Dever told Biblical Archaeology Review that his long study (50 years) of biblical archaeology has caused him to become an atheist. Quite a journey for a guy who started out as a minister.

Now *that* would be an interesting quote. Do you have a link?

Minimalist · 07-29-2007, 07:03 PM

I have looked, Sauron, but Biblical Archaeology has removed the link. I have an e-mail out to the guy who tipped me to it to see if he saved it.

I'll let you know.

Minimalist · 07-29-2007, 07:15 PM

Quote:

I have heard that Israelite-style houses have been found at Pi-Raamses. Is there any truth to this claim?

Canaanite style buildings have been found at Avaris, which was the Hyksos capital in the Delta. The site has been excavated for many years by Manfred Bietak. Pi-Raamses was apparently built over the ruins of Avaris by the 19th Dynasty pharoahs Seti and Rameses II.

If you run a search on Manfred Bietak you should find something fairly easily.

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07-29-2007, 11:41 AM	#22
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Dever's book is searchable on Amazon (I added the link to your thread), Fair use allows you to quote a paragraph or two. Type away.

07-29-2007, 03:39 PM	#24
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	However, the expulsion of the Hyksos could have been dimly remembered as oral tradition, and revised along the way to become us poor picked-on Canaanites escaping from those nasty wicked Egyptians. And from there, it would be revised even further to include the legendary hero Moses and the concerns of the Yahweh-only faction, like the wickedness of worshipping gods other than the One True God. And during the Babylonian Exile, it would have been seized on as reassurance that once before, we Israelites had escaped our captors and made it home.

07-29-2007, 06:04 PM	#26
Gullwind Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,037	Thanks. I was in a discussion about this with someone who believes the Israelites were in Egypt based on those three-roomed houses and the Tempest stele (recording the 10 plagues). I disagreed, and he told me I didn't know enough about the subject for him to discuss it with him. What can I do, he's the owner of that particular board.

07-29-2007, 07:03 PM	#29
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	I have looked, Sauron, but Biblical Archaeology has removed the link. I have an e-mail out to the guy who tipped me to it to see if he saved it. I'll let you know.

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