Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Russell's Teapot · 10-01-2006, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

A lot of people at that time thought that Heaven was literally located above the dome of the firmament, so people literally had to "ascend" to go to Heaven. Ironically enough, fire was regarded as a spiritual substance (since its natural inclination was to travel upwards), and some Greeks believed that the realm above the firmament contained fire -- so people ascended into a fiery heaven.

The sad thing is that a lot of Christians still think that heaven is up in the sky and that their dead relatives are peaking over the edges of clouds to look over them

Ruhan · 10-02-2006, 08:48 AM

There are some other problems/issues with this story:

- The idea that heaven existed above our atmosphere was prevalent throughout the world and various Mesopotamian religions believed that heaven literally existed somewhere in space. The Greek gods also ascended into the Heavens to be seated at their rightful place on Olympus which was a spiritual version of the real mountain. Dionysus, a possible template for Christ, also ascended into heaven. Even Islam later adopted the same idea as Mohammed could not be outdone by Jesus and they had him ascend into heaven via the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

- Christians try to explain this issue away by saying that Jesus didn't ascend into the sky but went from a "lower plane" i.e. earth to a "higher plane" i.e. heaven. The problem with this is that the Bible is full of references to this heaven being a physical place. The Tower of Babel was built to access heaven which the God of Gen 6 believed to be outside our atmosphere. Jesus is also taken "up into the clouds" and will one day descend from the clouds when returns.

philmcpeake · 10-07-2006, 09:17 AM

Thank you all for your replies!

At one time earlier in my life circa 1970-76 I was involved in a non-denomination fellowship group in Detroit, Michigan. The entry was to ask "Christ into your life" aka "born again" prayer. I became a little upset with the Bible in the mid-70s and so droppped out of this life-style/religious person/Bible thumper et al.

I am glad to have found this forum and have found books here at the public library on philosophy, cosmology, rationalist/atheist and other subjects.

I live in Salt Lake City home to another book of stories cooked up by the founder, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon. Why oh why did he feel a need to make this stuff up? Golden tablets and all. Translated this foreign text into English, hmmmm. Yet this LDS church is big time here and they basically run Utah. I plan to leave as soon as possible myself. It is a nice city but seems to me that religion can have a grip on the residents and it creates a "spirit" that is pervasive in this community.

Ruhan · 10-11-2006, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philmcpeake

Thank you all for your replies!

At one time earlier in my life circa 1970-76 I was involved in a non-denomination fellowship group in Detroit, Michigan. The entry was to ask "Christ into your life" aka "born again" prayer. I became a little upset with the Bible in the mid-70s and so droppped out of this life-style/religious person/Bible thumper et al.

I am glad to have found this forum and have found books here at the public library on philosophy, cosmology, rationalist/atheist and other subjects.

I live in Salt Lake City home to another book of stories cooked up by the founder, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon. Why oh why did he feel a need to make this stuff up? Golden tablets and all. Translated this foreign text into English, hmmmm. Yet this LDS church is big time here and they basically run Utah. I plan to leave as soon as possible myself. It is a nice city but seems to me that religion can have a grip on the residents and it creates a "spirit" that is pervasive in this community.

Thanks for sharing. I feel for you man. Living in Europe is very liberating as it's quite secular. Welcome on board.

Cheers,

Ru

IonMic · 10-13-2006, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruhan

There are some other problems/issues with this story:

- The idea that heaven existed above our atmosphere was prevalent throughout the world and various Mesopotamian religions believed that heaven literally existed somewhere in space. The Greek gods also ascended into the Heavens to be seated at their rightful place on Olympus which was a spiritual version of the real mountain. Dionysus, a possible template for Christ, also ascended into heaven. Even Islam later adopted the same idea as Mohammed could not be outdone by Jesus and they had him ascend into heaven via the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

- Christians try to explain this issue away by saying that Jesus didn't ascend into the sky but went from a "lower plane" i.e. earth to a "higher plane" i.e. heaven. The problem with this is that the Bible is full of references to this heaven being a physical place. The Tower of Babel was built to access heaven which the God of Gen 6 believed to be outside our atmosphere. Jesus is also taken "up into the clouds" and will one day descend from the clouds when returns.

So would you be more prone to accepting a Religion that did believe the residence of God was a physical place?

blkgayatheist · 10-18-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonMic

Correct, No HUMAN person could ascend to heaven without space suits etc but Jesus was not human at this point. He was a resurrected and translated entity.

Oh, a translated entity, that explains everything.

A translated entity with crucifixion wounds

Malachi151 · 10-18-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Then a few voices began to proclaim Romulus's divinity; the cry was taken up, and at last every man present hailed him as a god and son of a god, and prayed to him to be forever gracious and to protect his children. However, even on this great occasion there were, I believe, a few dissidents who secretly maintained that the king had been torn to pieces by the senators. At all events the story got about, though in veiled terms; but it was not important, as awe, and admiration for Romulus's greatness, set the seal upon the other version of his end, which was, moreover, given further credit by the timely action of a certain Julius Proculus, a man, we are told, honored for his wise counsel on weighty matters. The loss of the king had left the people in an uneasy mood and suspicious of the senators, and Proculus, aware of the prevalent temper, conceived the shrewd idea of addressing the Assembly. Romulus, he declared, the father of our City, descended from heaven at dawn this morning and appeared to me. In awe and reverence I stood before him, praying for permission to look upon his face without sin. "Go", he said, "and tell the Romans that by heaven's will my Rome shall be capital of the world. Let them learn to be soldiers. Let them know, and teach their children, that no power on earth can stand against Roman arms”. Having spoken these words, he was taken up again into the sky.
- Livy; The Early History of Rome; ~29 BCE

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 4

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

....

guy_683930 · 10-30-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonMic

So would you be more prone to accepting a Religion that did believe the residence of God was a physical place?

IonMic-

I would not be more prone towards it, but I would be more prone to a religion that after 1500 years of claiming the residence of God was a physical place remained consistent with what it taught.

-Guy

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-02-2006, 08:48 AM	#22
Ruhan Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London Posts: 176	There are some other problems/issues with this story: - The idea that heaven existed above our atmosphere was prevalent throughout the world and various Mesopotamian religions believed that heaven literally existed somewhere in space. The Greek gods also ascended into the Heavens to be seated at their rightful place on Olympus which was a spiritual version of the real mountain. Dionysus, a possible template for Christ, also ascended into heaven. Even Islam later adopted the same idea as Mohammed could not be outdone by Jesus and they had him ascend into heaven via the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. - Christians try to explain this issue away by saying that Jesus didn't ascend into the sky but went from a "lower plane" i.e. earth to a "higher plane" i.e. heaven. The problem with this is that the Bible is full of references to this heaven being a physical place. The Tower of Babel was built to access heaven which the God of Gen 6 believed to be outside our atmosphere. Jesus is also taken "up into the clouds" and will one day descend from the clouds when returns.

10-07-2006, 09:17 AM	#23
philmcpeake New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 3	Thank you all for your replies! At one time earlier in my life circa 1970-76 I was involved in a non-denomination fellowship group in Detroit, Michigan. The entry was to ask "Christ into your life" aka "born again" prayer. I became a little upset with the Bible in the mid-70s and so droppped out of this life-style/religious person/Bible thumper et al. I am glad to have found this forum and have found books here at the public library on philosophy, cosmology, rationalist/atheist and other subjects. I live in Salt Lake City home to another book of stories cooked up by the founder, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon. Why oh why did he feel a need to make this stuff up? Golden tablets and all. Translated this foreign text into English, hmmmm. Yet this LDS church is big time here and they basically run Utah. I plan to leave as soon as possible myself. It is a nice city but seems to me that religion can have a grip on the residents and it creates a "spirit" that is pervasive in this community.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.