Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Transient · 02-08-2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

Well I would still like it all to be true. I would still like there to be a loving, kind God who cares for me. I don't mind the rules, "rules are cool" as Buzby would say. I have just had too good a look at the foundations of the church - I should never have looked at them. I really wish I hadn't.

Transient, I spent over 50 years thinking that I would like it all to be true, then I became aware that what the Bible stories actually propose is nightmarish. and worse, destructive to any genuine human initiative to make the real world that we live in a better place.
Because at heart, both the Old, and The New Testament's, are books of doom and gloom, with an integral perspective that the only solution to mankind's problems is a God caused worldwide and wholesale destruction of humanity.
I am not such a sick minded misanthrope that I would even want to survive while 99.9% of the worlds population gets destroyed under "Gods wrath".
Having finally shook off those old and ignorant religious superstitions, I am at long last enjoying my life in the real universe as it is.
And I see myself as now being a much better citizen, and a more ethical person, than I was ever able to be as a believer, I no longer have "defend" the Bibles ridiculous fairy tales, or even attempt to rationalise away why BibleGods ordering the murder of innocent children and infants was moral.
I can converse with, and help my fellow man without need to judge his religion or nationality, or feel compelled to preach or engage in any subtle religious indoctrination or conversion efforts. That evil wedge that religion is, no longer splits me off from genuine concern others.
Once I got rid of the idea that I was "saved" or was going to be "saved" one of these days, I no longer thought my self so "special", or better than others who were not of my own religion, no one else is any more "saved" or "lost" than myself, we are all of us like the leaves, we live, we die, and we return to the elements.
No one "needs" a god, we need each other, and to care for each other, and for all men everywhere with impartiality.

I am glad that I looked at the church's foundations, as I finally was able to grow-up and put away those old fairy tales and childish things.
And also those things that were unsavory and divisive, things inimical to a sound mind and to mental health.
I cannot be optimistic about a wrathful god ultimately destroying the earth, if that is real, then life is of no value and not worth living.
Truth that is true, is worth living and dying for, and part of that truth is the fact that the god of the Bible is only a fabrication of men.

Yeh but it's so hard to wake up from the dream that I have had for 58 years.
The dream that someone is actually in control of everything, that everything will work out ok, that someone actually cares about me just like a father should.
But you are right - it seems to be just a dream, an illusion now.
And yet it is so hard to totally break away from something that has been ingrained from early childhood.
Almost all my experiences and knowledge point to there not being a god. Still there is just something inside that yearns for it and still thinks it's possible somehow.

Analyst · 02-08-2009, 02:49 PM

Is it possible that when people talk of other races as "Having the Mark of Cain" what they mean is that they are already several steps behind because of the racial inequities of the world, they won't be treated on an equal footing because of race. The "Mark of Cain" then is merely a figure of speech, not a literal description.

Sheshbazzar · 02-08-2009, 03:26 PM

Perhaps that is what some people intend, it is none the less a racist view that categories entire ethnic groups as being "behind" and backward.
A very small step from concluding that any individual from these groups can likewise be prejudged as being "behind", and backward, and thus unworthy of equal respect, and equal access to opportunities, and of being incapable to function or to succeed on a level comparative with a "white" person.

But such a view is not at all inherent within The Scriptural text, it is derived totally from biased ethnic prejudices and ideas, and this "figure of speech" when applied and understood in this manner, is a self-perpetuating discriminatory excuse and rationalization for treating other races as inferior.
It is an abuse of the Bible, and of fellow men who are every bit as good, and as capable as those who employ this "figure of speech" as a degrading categorizing insult.

semiopen · 02-08-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyst

Is it possible that when people talk of other races as "Having the Mark of Cain" what they mean is that they are already several steps behind because of the racial inequities of the world, they won't be treated on an equal footing because of race. The "Mark of Cain" then is merely a figure of speech, not a literal description.

The Curse of Ham is perhaps a better example of justification of racism, if only for the reason (as others here have pointed out) that Ham and his son Canaan survived the flood as opposed to Cain. There is another possibility of Cain's descendants survivng the flood, if Naamah (Tubal Cain's sister) was Noah's wife as suggested in a minority opinion in the Talmud.

The pre-patriarch portion of the bible is so patently not historical that it just mystifies me why people would believe in it. Especially since, any theological significance the literal truth has is so obscure.

Analyst · 02-08-2009, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Perhaps that is what some people intend, it is none the less a racist view that categories entire ethnic groups as being "behind" and backward.

No, you misread. What I am saying is that they acknowledge how disadvantaged other races often are; so if you see a poor black child in a ghetto area of the USA for example you know what a tough life he is likely to have and how his chances are limited. A poor white child, if he is clever, can often do better and advance further. It isn't fair but it is reality.

Sheshbazzar · 02-09-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyst

Is it possible that when people.......

Analyst, "people" covers a lot of area, and perhaps some people are using the phrase in that gentle sense you intended.
But, and I do wish that this was not so, most of the people that I have encountered in my life, that would ever allow such a phrase to roll off their lips, would be using that observation in a racist and derogatory fashion.

There simply is no call for anyone to need continue to wrest the phrase from its context and apply it to any race in any fashion.
If a person feels compelled to express a measure of genuine compassion for peoples who have been denied equal footing and opportunities because of their skins color, then this is about the poorest possible expression they could possibly use, because it has had such a long history of being used to justify racism, and racist practices.
No amount of whitewash applied at this late date will ever serve to cover up the facts of its long and unsavory use as a justification for the evils of racism, and use as a degrading insult.
Ethical men, who are truly concerned for the welfare and for the sensitivities of those peoples who were so long enslaved and abused, will renounce and put aside any continued usage of such offensive sayings to describe innocent peoples against whom the words were not even directed.
I would never even consider using such an offensive saying in the presence of the dark skinned members of my family.
Most Christian Denominations have long since soundly rejected and renounced any such application of the saying.
Its usage is no longer appropriate in any sense outside of its actual Scriptural context. Cain the -individual- was marked, and bare his curse for committing the first murder- NO ONE ELSE.

Analyst · 02-09-2009, 10:28 PM

You still aren't following. When people refer to something as "The Titanic" of (whatever) they don't literally mean the ship itself - or a replica of it. And when the say "The Mark of Cain" they don't mean a literal mark - they are simply looking for an illustration of the idea they wish to convey.

Sheshbazzar · 02-09-2009, 10:41 PM

Ummm, Analyst, what do you think "perhaps some people are using the phrase in that gentle sense you intended." might indicate?

Transient · 02-10-2009, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyst

Is it possible that when people.......

Analyst, "people" covers a lot of area, and perhaps some people are using the phrase in that gentle sense you intended.
But, and I do wish that this was not so, most of the people that I have encountered in my life, that would ever allow such a phrase to roll off their lips, would be using that observation in a racist and derogatory fashion.

There simply is no call for anyone to need continue to wrest the phrase from its context and apply it to any race in any fashion.
If a person feels compelled to express a measure of genuine compassion for peoples who have been denied equal footing and opportunities because of their skins color, then this is about the poorest possible expression they could possibly use, because it has had such a long history of being used to justify racism, and racist practices.
No amount of whitewash applied at this late date will ever serve to cover up the facts of its long and unsavory use as a justification for the evils of racism, and use as a degrading insult.
Ethical men, who are truly concerned for the welfare and for the sensitivities of those peoples who were so long enslaved and abused, will renounce and put aside any continued usage of such offensive sayings to describe innocent peoples against whom the words were not even directed.
I would never even consider using such an offensive saying in the presence of the dark skinned members of my family.
Most Christian Denominations have long since soundly rejected and renounced any such application of the saying.
Its usage is no longer appropriate in any sense outside of its actual Scriptural context. Cain the -individual- was marked, and bare his curse for committing the first murder- NO ONE ELSE.

Except that the god of the Jews seems to like passing on punishment to quite a few generations after the perpetrator. Somewhere in the OT it says something about the punishment going on for a few or maybe even 7 generations

Lovely god they have got eh?
Can you imagine a court handing down a conviction these days that passed on to the next generation and more?
Talk about an unjust and lousy god they have.
If you are a christian it pays to stick to the NT - of course they sort of cover that by saying that those silly old laws were done away by Jesus who inadvertently says "I have not come to do away with any laws" - I bet he regretted saying that one - his minders must have chided him later on.
So it would seem that the priestly class included this abomination at some stage to further intimidate the poor average Jew.

Sheshbazzar · 02-10-2009, 01:39 AM

That the things that befall one generation do seriously affect the well being of succeeding generations is a simple and observable phenomena in all societies in all times and places.
What we sow, our children and our grandchildren will have to reap the harvest of, even as we from our fore-bearers inherited a world that was not of our own making or choosing, yet must deal with the problems that they created for us.
It has never required any action by a vindictive god to force it to be so.
That was only the ancient Jewish writers attempt to explain the phenomena in terms suited to their own culture.

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02-08-2009, 02:49 PM	#42
Analyst Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: PNW USA Posts: 216	Is it possible that when people talk of other races as "Having the Mark of Cain" what they mean is that they are already several steps behind because of the racial inequities of the world, they won't be treated on an equal footing because of race. The "Mark of Cain" then is merely a figure of speech, not a literal description.

02-08-2009, 03:26 PM	#43
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Perhaps that is what some people intend, it is none the less a racist view that categories entire ethnic groups as being "behind" and backward. A very small step from concluding that any individual from these groups can likewise be prejudged as being "behind", and backward, and thus unworthy of equal respect, and equal access to opportunities, and of being incapable to function or to succeed on a level comparative with a "white" person. But such a view is not at all inherent within The Scriptural text, it is derived totally from biased ethnic prejudices and ideas, and this "figure of speech" when applied and understood in this manner, is a self-perpetuating discriminatory excuse and rationalization for treating other races as inferior. It is an abuse of the Bible, and of fellow men who are every bit as good, and as capable as those who employ this "figure of speech" as a degrading categorizing insult.

02-09-2009, 10:28 PM	#47
Analyst Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: PNW USA Posts: 216	You still aren't following. When people refer to something as "The Titanic" of (whatever) they don't literally mean the ship itself - or a replica of it. And when the say "The Mark of Cain" they don't mean a literal mark - they are simply looking for an illustration of the idea they wish to convey.

02-09-2009, 10:41 PM	#48
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Ummm, Analyst, what do you think "perhaps some people are using the phrase in that gentle sense you intended." might indicate?

02-10-2009, 01:39 AM	#50
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	That the things that befall one generation do seriously affect the well being of succeeding generations is a simple and observable phenomena in all societies in all times and places. What we sow, our children and our grandchildren will have to reap the harvest of, even as we from our fore-bearers inherited a world that was not of our own making or choosing, yet must deal with the problems that they created for us. It has never required any action by a vindictive god to force it to be so. That was only the ancient Jewish writers attempt to explain the phenomena in terms suited to their own culture.

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