Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 01-09-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Byers

Only a fool wouldn't do what God tells him to do.

These children are just small adults. They choose to do evil and rightly were punished. They did not just hate a man but someone they knew was from God so they hated God.

Abraham call to sacrifice his son was a test of his faith. Abraham knew that even if he killed his son that God would raise him from the dead.
Rob Byers

I have to backpedal a bit and admit that Robert's answered the question in a quite straightforward way.

From your answer, Robert, I assume that, if the following laws were still in effect, and you believed them to be God's laws, you would follow them:

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

Darklighter · 01-09-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Byers

Only a fool wouldn't do what God tells him to do.

These children are just small adults. They choose to do evil and rightly were punished. They did not just hate a man but someone they knew was from God so they hated God.

Abraham call to sacrifice his son was a test of his faith. Abraham knew that even if he killed his son that God would raise him from the dead.
Rob Byers

I have to backpedal a bit and admit that Robert's answered the question in a quite straightforward way.
From your answer, Robert, I assume that, if the following laws were still in effect, and you believed them to be God's laws, you would follow them:

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

Actually yes. You're right. But as you've pointed out, the issue still remains: Harmonize such reasoning with god's love.

Cege · 01-09-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

It's really a straightforward question:

If God (and you knew it was God) commanded you to kill (a child, or anyone else), would you or would you not obey?

I know Christians who say they are certain that God has told them to do and/or not do certain things. I've never been certain of God telling me anything, so I don't know how I'd KNOW it was God commanding me to kill someone.

If I were sufficiently enraged against that person, I might entertain the idea that God was telling me to kill him (or her), but I just can't imagine that situation actually occuring. Like the story of the rich young ruler that Jesus told to get rid of his riches and follow Jesus, I think I'd probably walk away from the command to kill someone.

Obviously, the question being asked isn't about killing in self-defense or defense of others.

Mageth · 01-09-2008, 11:44 AM

This is, of course, my opinion:

I think that people, by and large, follow their own personal moral sensibility. This includes the religious, and Christians of various persuasions, whether liberal or conservative. If your moral sense tells you that it's wrong to kill, e.g. a child for disobeying, then you're not going to so kill. And you're not ever going to believe that a God has told you to so kill, or believe in a God that would tell you to so kill.

Of course, some people's moral sense stretches to at least allow for what I would consider immoral - e.g. "only a fool wouldn't do what God tells him to do" at least allows a person to justify to their own moral sense acts which I (and others) would consider morally abhorrent.

If God (and you knew it was God) commanded you to kill (a child, or anyone else), would you or would you not obey?

No, I would not. I would remain true to my own moral sensibility, and I would not obey God - I would not kill someone, child or otherwise, just because God told me to.

Note that, in Robert Byers' book, that would make me a "fool". I reckon because God would smash me if I didn't kill the child or whoever else God was commanding me to kill. In my book, it makes me an independent, free moral being.

And I wonder if a God who would hold my position, my disobedience, against me, and punish me for disobeying, is a God that would be worth worshipping. In my opinion, no.

sugarhitman · 01-09-2008, 12:05 PM

Ive heard many critics accuse God of killing these children by sending those bears to maul them. But the fact is nothing is further from the truth. The power of curses are real which is why Jesus says bless those who curse you. Paul says "Bless and do not curse." Balaam a corrupt prophet was known to both bless and curse for money..."For I know that he whom you bless is blessed, and he whom you curse is cursed"---Balak Numbers 22 Peter says of Balaam....."Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness." Balaam was a prophet who called God "my Lord" but yet was paid to curse and bless people. To curse someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. (but he did not call for the bears, evil forces do act on curses which is why cursing is so prominent in witchcraft and satanism, and is why it is forbidden by Jesus and the Apostles). In the NT one of the Apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume a city that did not respond positively to Jesus's Gospel. Jesus turned around and rebuked him saying "you do not know what manner of spirit you are of." Christians should keep in mind that sometimes evil thoughts are from without and that it is these forces that we are at war with. The scriptures makes this very clear.

Yes the power of curses are real (see Noah and the curse of Cannan) and especially potent when uttered by a person of great faith (whether they stand for Good or Evil).

Thus the curse of Elisha was not of God. :wave:

Johnny Skeptic · 01-09-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

I've heard many critics accuse God of killing these children by sending those bears to maul them. But the fact is nothing is further from the truth. The power of curses are real which is why Jesus says bless those who curse you. Paul says "Bless and do not curse." Balaam a corrupt prophet was known to both bless and curse for money..."For I know that he whom you bless is blessed, and he whom you curse is cursed"---Balak Numbers 22 Peter says of Balaam....."Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness." Balaam was a prophet who called God "my Lord" but yet was paid to curse and bless people. To curse someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. (but he did not call for the bears, evil forces do act on curses which is why cursing is so prominent in witchcraft and satanism, and is why it is forbidden by Jesus and the Apostles). In the NT one of the Apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume a city that did not respond positively to Jesus's Gospel. Jesus turned around and rebuked him saying "you do not know what manner of spirit you are of." Christians should keep in mind that sometimes evil thoughts are from without and that it is these forces that we are at war with. The scriptures makes this very clear.

Yes the power of curses are real (see Noah and the curse of Cannan) and especially potent when uttered by a person of great faith (whether they stand for Good or Evil).

Thus the curse of Elisha was not of God.

Those issues aside, in your opinion, how and why did Hurricane Katriana come into existence and go to New Orleans?

Why did God kill babies at Sodom and Gomorrah?

Why does God sometimes break his own rules?

Why did God cause animals to kill each other after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit?

In your opinion, can polar bears that live far away from humans survive on a vegetarian diet during the winter? Polar bears do not hibernate.

Please be advised that there is not a necessary correlation between power and good character.

Darklighter · 01-09-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ive heard many critics accuse God of killing these children by sending those bears to maul them. But the fact is nothing is further from the truth. The power of curses are real which is why Jesus says bless those who curse you. Paul says "Bless and do not curse." Balaam a corrupt prophet was known to both bless and curse for money..."For I know that he whom you bless is blessed, and he whom you curse is cursed"---Balak Numbers 22 Peter says of Balaam....."Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness." Balaam was a prophet who called God "my Lord" but yet was paid to curse and bless people. To curse someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. (but he did not call for the bears, evil forces do act on curses which is why cursing is so prominent in witchcraft and satanism, and is why it is forbidden by Jesus and the Apostles). In the NT one of the Apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume a city that did not respond positively to Jesus's Gospel. Jesus turned around and rebuked him saying "you do not know what manner of spirit you are of." Christians should keep in mind that sometimes evil thoughts are from without and that it is these forces that we are at war with. The scriptures makes this very clear.

Yes the power of curses are real (see Noah and the curse of Cannan) and especially potent when uttered by a person of great faith (whether they stand for Good or Evil).

Thus the curse of Elisha was not of God. :wave:

Wow. Where to begin. I didn't think it would be this easy.

Here goes... What we have, by your logic, is a case of a righteous man tapping into evil forces (Satan/demons, :devil1: - whatever) to kill on a whim. This is STRICTLY forbidden by Mosaic law, punishable by death in fact. Yet is Elisha considered bad? No. Did God punish/reprimand/even mention Elishas "sin"? No. Elisha was of God. His power to "call down evil" was from God. If memory serves, God himself is even spoken of as "calling down evil" upon the unrighteous. God "cursed" the ground after Adam & Eve sinned. I've never heard in my years of going to church, and researching, that literalists think Elisha acted inappropriately in this case. Quite the contrary in fact.

Second, you desribe the power to "curse" as real. What documented proof do we have that is available to back up this claim? (I'm speaking of the mystical "curse", since it can also mean simply saying negative things to someone.)

Quote:

The scriptures makes this very clear.

But what else does?

sugarhitman · 01-10-2008, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ive heard many critics accuse God of killing these children by sending those bears to maul them. But the fact is nothing is further from the truth. The power of curses are real which is why Jesus says bless those who curse you. Paul says "Bless and do not curse." Balaam a corrupt prophet was known to both bless and curse for money..."For I know that he whom you bless is blessed, and he whom you curse is cursed"---Balak Numbers 22 Peter says of Balaam....."Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness." Balaam was a prophet who called God "my Lord" but yet was paid to curse and bless people. To curse someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. (but he did not call for the bears, evil forces do act on curses which is why cursing is so prominent in witchcraft and satanism, and is why it is forbidden by Jesus and the Apostles). In the NT one of the Apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume a city that did not respond positively to Jesus's Gospel. Jesus turned around and rebuked him saying "you do not know what manner of spirit you are of." Christians should keep in mind that sometimes evil thoughts are from without and that it is these forces that we are at war with. The scriptures makes this very clear.

Yes the power of curses are real (see Noah and the curse of Cannan) and especially potent when uttered by a person of great faith (whether they stand for Good or Evil).

Thus the curse of Elisha was not of God. :wave:

Wow. Where to begin. I didn't think it would be this easy.

Here goes... What we have, by your logic, is a case of a righteous man tapping into evil forces (Satan/demons, :devil1: - whatever) to kill on a whim. This is STRICTLY forbidden by Mosaic law, punishable by death in fact. Yet is Elisha considered bad? No. Did God punish/reprimand/even mention Elishas "sin"? No. Elisha was of God. His power to "call down evil" was from God. If memory serves, God himself is even spoken of as "calling down evil" upon the unrighteous. God "cursed" the ground after Adam & Eve sinned. I've never heard in my years of going to church, and researching, that literalists think Elisha acted inappropriately in this case. Quite the contrary in fact.

Second, you desribe the power to "curse" as real. What documented proof do we have that is available to back up this claim? (I'm speaking of the mystical "curse", since it can also mean simply saying negative things to someone.)

Quote:

The scriptures makes this very clear.

But what else does?

Ms. Darklighter I in no way said that Elisha was tapping into "dark powers." Rather it was dark powers acting on the curse of Elisha. Which is why Jesus is against curseing. Even men of God sin somtime. Who do you believe was behind the temptation of David to have Uriah killed for Bath-Sheba? God or the Devil? Who was behind Abraham sin to sleep with Hagar that resulted in the birth of Ishmael cheif enemy of the Israelites? What spirit was behind Balaam (who was a prophet of God although corrupt) who cursed people for money? No man is immune from evil influences, and all sin. Evil will exploit the sin of man which has been the case from the beginning which is why Paul says:

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES." Ephesians 6

One of the pieces of this armor is the "breastplate of righteousness." Righteousness (God's moral laws) prevents us from being used by these wicked forces. When you sin you bring these forces into action. And since "ALL men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" no one is completly out of reach of these forces...including Elisha.

So no Ms. Darklighter Elisha did not tap into evil forces (for that would be witchcraft and satanism) evil forces exploited his sin...as they do us all. :wave:

sugarhitman · 01-10-2008, 02:14 AM

Note: There is a difference between curses of God such as his curse upon sin, and those of man. God curses are judgements, punishments for sins. While the curses of men are *wishes for something bad to happen to someone else.* God curses simply means judgements that results from sins, the opposite of blessings. Man's curse is the wish to bring harm to someone else. God does not WISH to bring harm to no man.

In Genesis we read "cursed is the ground for thy sake" in otherwords cursed is the ground because of you. Because Adam sinned a curse enterd the world and the whole world is cursed. This is not a wish for harm but a response to sin. Most of the evil that goes on today causing great sufferings in the world is because of the actions of evil men who allow themselves to be freely used by evil forces. Freakish violent weather is also a response to sin. Sometimes innocent children (now im responding to 'many question Johnny' who may still disregard this answer and ask me the same thing again and again and again and accuse me of "dodging") do get caught up in bad weather, wars, etc. but people should understand eventhough the innocent will die in this world (they will) ultimate death is being seperated from God and his blessings for all eternity in hell, where NO CHILD WILL GO. Even christians, will suffer in this world, EVEN THE LORD SUFFERED IN THIS WORLD.

Conclusion: Bact to the original subject. The curse of God are judgements RESPONDING TO SIN. The cursing of man, ARE WISHES FOR HARM TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. ELISHA SINNED. As we all do some times. Goodbye

Robert Byers · 01-10-2008, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Well, to be fair, these stories are not really that bad.

You've read them right?

That wasn't the issue I raised. Those other writings don't have billions of devotees TODAY, all claiming their infallibility. And yes, that was a cruel thing to do. Why not just give a really neat-o vision that gets the point across?

There's lot's of stupid views that people hold onto. For example: The belief that there's a supernatural being out there that actually gives a sh!t.

Actually I understand quite well what the story is supposed to mean. It's supposed to represent the pain of the sacrifices God makes in our behalf, and one of his children reciprocating that love. Your human sacrifice angle makes no sense from a religious, particularly Christian, standpoint. But again, this is not the issue I raised.

I somewhat agree with you here. However, if the OT is not taken literally, then it relegates the entire Bible to be nothing more than a literary curiosity. No original sin, no redemption necessary. And as a book it would deserve no more devotion than say, The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. I'm curious though, you apparently don't believe the Bible to be inspired, yet you defend it's credibility? The Bible itself claims its divine authorship (2 Tim 3:16), therefore if it is not, then it has no credibility. Isn't that how things are supposed to work?
----------------------------------

Perhaps you're right. BUT I would hope that a god worthy of that kind of devotion would be more benevolent, and could get things done with LESS BLOODSHED than the one portrayed in the OT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Byers

These children are just small adults. They choose to do evil and rightly were punished. They did not just hate a man but someone they knew was from God so they hated God.

Abraham call to sacrifice his son was a test of his faith. Abraham knew that even if he killed his son that God would raise him from the dead.
Rob Byers

Again, Abraham was not the issue. But if you can't see what's wrong with your other arguement, I'm sorry. How many children do REALLY DUMB things, and then seriously regret them as adults? Dare I say, all of them? I know I have. Why does society not allow children to drive untill they're 16? Why is a 12 year old not allowed to have sex with a 30 year old? Why is the legal drinking age 21? Why is there a difference between being tried as a minor and being tried as an adult? Because (aside from other developmental issues) 99.9% of children don't have the maturity to MAKE CONSISTENTLY GOOD DECISIONS!!! If society recognizes this, why doesn't God?

Now please address the other issue I raised: What sin did the infants commit who died in the genocide at the hands of the Israelites by God's command? And describe to me how this fits in with god's love.

Why do you inst children can't do evil? They can.

There was no genecide but anyway the children did not do adult sins but still were conceived in sin and sinful in the womb. So they are just as guilty as adults in reality in the eyes of God.
Rob byers

01-09-2008, 12:05 PM	#35
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	The curse of Elisha was not of God Ive heard many critics accuse God of killing these children by sending those bears to maul them. But the fact is nothing is further from the truth. The power of curses are real which is why Jesus says bless those who curse you. Paul says "Bless and do not curse." Balaam a corrupt prophet was known to both bless and curse for money..."For I know that he whom you bless is blessed, and he whom you curse is cursed"---Balak Numbers 22 Peter says of Balaam....."Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness." Balaam was a prophet who called God "my Lord" but yet was paid to curse and bless people. To curse someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. (but he did not call for the bears, evil forces do act on curses which is why cursing is so prominent in witchcraft and satanism, and is why it is forbidden by Jesus and the Apostles). In the NT one of the Apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume a city that did not respond positively to Jesus's Gospel. Jesus turned around and rebuked him saying "you do not know what manner of spirit you are of." Christians should keep in mind that sometimes evil thoughts are from without and that it is these forces that we are at war with. The scriptures makes this very clear. Yes the power of curses are real (see Noah and the curse of Cannan) and especially potent when uttered by a person of great faith (whether they stand for Good or Evil). Thus the curse of Elisha was not of God. :wave:

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01-09-2008, 11:44 AM	#34
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	This is, of course, my opinion: I think that people, by and large, follow their own personal moral sensibility. This includes the religious, and Christians of various persuasions, whether liberal or conservative. If your moral sense tells you that it's wrong to kill, e.g. a child for disobeying, then you're not going to so kill. And you're not ever going to believe that a God has told you to so kill, or believe in a God that would tell you to so kill. Of course, some people's moral sense stretches to at least allow for what I would consider immoral - e.g. "only a fool wouldn't do what God tells him to do" at least allows a person to justify to their own moral sense acts which I (and others) would consider morally abhorrent. If God (and you knew it was God) commanded you to kill (a child, or anyone else), would you or would you not obey? No, I would not. I would remain true to my own moral sensibility, and I would not obey God - I would not kill someone, child or otherwise, just because God told me to. Note that, in Robert Byers' book, that would make me a "fool". I reckon because God would smash me if I didn't kill the child or whoever else God was commanding me to kill. In my book, it makes me an independent, free moral being. And I wonder if a God who would hold my position, my disobedience, against me, and punish me for disobeying, is a God that would be worth worshipping. In my opinion, no.

01-10-2008, 02:14 AM	#39
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Note: There is a difference between curses of God such as his curse upon sin, and those of man. God curses are judgements, punishments for sins. While the curses of men are wishes for something bad to happen to someone else. God curses simply means judgements that results from sins, the opposite of blessings. Man's curse is the wish to bring harm to someone else. God does not WISH to bring harm to no man. In Genesis we read "cursed is the ground for thy sake" in otherwords cursed is the ground because of you. Because Adam sinned a curse enterd the world and the whole world is cursed. This is not a wish for harm but a response to sin. Most of the evil that goes on today causing great sufferings in the world is because of the actions of evil men who allow themselves to be freely used by evil forces. Freakish violent weather is also a response to sin. Sometimes innocent children (now im responding to 'many question Johnny' who may still disregard this answer and ask me the same thing again and again and again and accuse me of "dodging") do get caught up in bad weather, wars, etc. but people should understand eventhough the innocent will die in this world (they will) ultimate death is being seperated from God and his blessings for all eternity in hell, where NO CHILD WILL GO. Even christians, will suffer in this world, EVEN THE LORD SUFFERED IN THIS WORLD. Conclusion: Bact to the original subject. The curse of God are judgements RESPONDING TO SIN. The cursing of man, ARE WISHES FOR HARM TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. ELISHA SINNED. As we all do some times. Goodbye

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