Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 12-20-2009, 02:46 PM

I've been studying the

Shroud_of_Turin.

There is a position that there is actual blood on the shroud.

This has been identified as type AB.

The wiki article states:

Quote:

A problem with a blood type AB for an authentic shroud is that it is today known that this type of blood is of relative recent origin. There is no evidence of the existence of this blood type before the year AD 700. It is today assumed that the blood type AB came into the existence by immigration and following intermingling of mongoloid people from central Asia with a high frequency of the blood type B to Europe and other areas where people with a relatively high frequency of the blood type A live.

I have had difficulty finding documentation on the AD 700 origin and would welcome any clarification of this.

Sorry for misspelling Turin.

ajgrovery · 12-20-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I've been studying the

Shroud_of_Turin.

There is a position that there is actual blood on the shroud.

This has been identified as type AB.

The wiki article states:

Quote:

A problem with a blood type AB for an authentic shroud is that it is today known that this type of blood is of relative recent origin. There is no evidence of the existence of this blood type before the year AD 700. It is today assumed that the blood type AB came into the existence by immigration and following intermingling of mongoloid people from central Asia with a high frequency of the blood type B to Europe and other areas where people with a relatively high frequency of the blood type A live.

I have had difficulty finding documentation on the AD 700 origin and would welcome any clarification of this.

Sorry for misspelling Turin.

Evolution Creation ???? suggest a move to biblical critisism

variant 13 · 12-20-2009, 03:22 PM

The real question is how can it be a mix of blood types when there was supposed to be only one human involved?

Minimalist · 12-20-2009, 03:41 PM

Archaeologist Shimon Gibson has found a real, first-century AD burial shroud and as this article makes clear, it is nothing like the medieval forgery from Turin.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...Jerusalem.html

semiopen · 12-20-2009, 03:49 PM

Sorry, I thought my point was clear, since I was quoting someone else.

The Wiki is saying that blood type AB didn't exist until 700 AD. If the blood type on the Shroud is AB, then its origin is probably after that, certainly not 700 years earlier.

This is evolution, was wondering what evidence exists for it not appearing until this time.

There are two references in the article for this.

Quote:

^ Evan Colins: A Question of Evidence. The Casebook of Great Forensic Controversies, from Napoleon to O.J. 2002, Chapter 1: The Turin Shroud (1355)
^ "Peter D'Adamo: ''Blood groups and the history of peoples.'' In: ''Complete Blood Type Encyclopedia.''". Dadamo.com. 1999-01-15. http://www.dadamo.com/knowbase/theory/anthro.htm. Retrieved 2009-04-12.

semiopen · 12-20-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Archaeologist Shimon Gibson has found a real, first-century AD burial shroud and as this article makes clear, it is nothing like the medieval forgery from Turin.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...Jerusalem.html

This is actually what started me on my weekend research project.

I have no doubt that the shroud is not actually Jesus, but wanted to answer the claim that blood type AB was found on the shroud as well as the

Sudarium_of_Oviedo.

The existence of blood on the Shroud is unclear but if there is blood and it is AB, this would indicate the age of the Shroud and Sudarium are well after the first centruy, if the blood type AB first appearance is later.

From the source I quoted in my previous wiki reference.

Quote:

Blood group AB is found in less than five percent of the population. It is certainly the most recent blood group. Unlike the other Abo blood groups, group AB resulted from the intermingling of group A Caucasian people and group B Mongolian people. Some of this may have been peaceful, some must have been part of the violent turmoil that marked the great "Migration of Peoples" at the end of the Ancient Period (300AD-800AD)

This time period was characterized by the collapse of the ancient civilizations, brought on by the influx of various wandering hordes of predominantly Eastern origin. The incidence of blood group B was probably very high in these Steppe dwellers, so the appearance of group AB in Europe is probably the result of the intermingling of these Eastern invaders with their European hosts. In Europe, the distribution of this blood group parallels group B, with a low incidence in Western Europeans. There is a very high incidence of AB blood in sub-continental Indians, again probably the result of migration, conquest, caste distinctions and intermingling .

The shroud references claim that AB is typically middle eastern which does not seem correct.

KaleriaStorm · 12-20-2009, 04:21 PM

I hadn't heard about the blood, but the Shroud episode of Secrets of the Dead was fascinating.

Minimalist · 12-20-2009, 07:04 PM

Semi,

Shroud sites that claim the markings are blood are no surprise as they exist to prop up the claims about this particular item.

I tend to rely more on actual scientific sites. They don't have an agenda to promote and do not solicit "donations" from believers.

http://www.livescience.com/history/0...in_shroud.html

Quote:

The alleged blood stains are unnaturally picture-like. Instead of matting the hair, for instance, they run in rivulets on the outside of the locks. Also dried "blood" (as on the arms) has been implausibly transferred to the cloth. The blood remains bright red, unlike genuine blood that blackens with age.

In 1973, internationally known forensic serologists subjected the "blood" to a battery of tests--for chemical properties, species, blood grouping, etc. The substance lacked the properties of blood, instead containing suspicious, reddish granules.

Subsequently, the distinguished microanalyst Walter McCrone identified the "blood" as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint and concluded that the entire image had been painted.

Non-praying Mantis · 12-20-2009, 08:18 PM

I think that shroud stuff goes in BC&H.

NPM, E/C Moderator

Photon · 12-21-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by variant 13

The real question is how can it be a mix of blood types when there was supposed to be only one human involved?

Well, Mary could have been type B and the Holy Spirit type A (since he had to supply some kind of sperm and Y chromosome), though maybe there is a test for the Overshadowing Factor, (see Luke 1:35) so Jesus should be AB OF+.

No one else should be OF+.

I asked the wife if I could overshadow her tonight, and she turned me down. I mean, I don't overshadow like I used to, but I still get the job done, and my overshadowment enthusiasm hasn't waned.

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12-20-2009, 03:22 PM	#3
variant 13 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: no where, uk Posts: 4,677	The real question is how can it be a mix of blood types when there was supposed to be only one human involved?

12-20-2009, 03:41 PM	#4
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Archaeologist Shimon Gibson has found a real, first-century AD burial shroud and as this article makes clear, it is nothing like the medieval forgery from Turin. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...Jerusalem.html

12-20-2009, 04:21 PM	#7
KaleriaStorm Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 480	I hadn't heard about the blood, but the Shroud episode of Secrets of the Dead was fascinating.

12-20-2009, 08:18 PM	#9
Non-praying Mantis Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Roanoke, VA, USA Posts: 2,646	I think that shroud stuff goes in BC&H. NPM, E/C Moderator

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