myndreach

All that this thread does for me is add to my assertion that the bible is not god's word. The bible is the most misunderstood, mistranslated, convoluted, contorted, re-arranged, confusing book ever written.

Hardly a way for an infallible, loving, caring god to communicate his message of salvation from the hell's he has prepared for us...

WILLOWTREE

Why is that ?

Answer: evidence for the reality of Satan.

Sven

ROTFL! This made my day!
:notworthy

WILLOWTREE

Hi Jack:

If I had the time I could dismantle every thing in your post (almost).

But concerning your link, number 6, about the Jews not becoming "as the stars of heaven/sand of the sea" ALLEGED prophecy failure. Please read the following proof of refutation.


Probably the most cited alleged failed Bible prophecy is the promise of Genesis 22:17 and 26:4
Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Genesis 26:4
And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed

In these passages, God is speaking to Abraham, and He promises that Abraham's descendants will numerically become so vast as to only be compared to the stars of heaven/sand on the seashore.

Everywhere I go on the Net I run into some site that says these promises/prophecies failed because the Jews are anything but a people populated as such.

This is absolutely true. The Jews are a tiny worldwide minority. Is the Bible and its God a failure to keep His promise to Abraham ?

What is a Jew ?

ALL JEWS ARE HEBREWS BUT NOT ALL HEBREWS ARE JEWS. ALL JEWS ARE ISRAELITES BUT NOT ALL ISRAELITES ARE JEWS.

The word "Jews" does not appear in the Bible until 2Kings 16:6 and 2Chronicles 32:18.(KJV)

The word is used to describe persons that make up and populate the Southern kingdom of Judah which consisted of two tribes from Israel - Judah and Benjamin. Hence, Judah/Jews.

God, in these verses DIVIDES Israel into TWO distinct kingdoms.

God gives Jeroboam the right to rule 10 tribes and Rehoboam (Solomon's son) gets his kingdom reduced to 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin).

Now from this point on in scripture there are TWO Hebrew nations/kingdoms. The Northern kingdom (capitol of Samaria) is called House of Israel and its historical perspective is recorded in the books of First and Second Kings. The Southern kingdom (capitol of Jerusalem) is called Judah and its historical perspective is recorded in the books of First and Second Chronicles. ONLY after this split are the people of Judah called "Jews".

Now in Genesis 48 Jacob is going to distribute the birthright. This means the promises given to Abraham by God will flow through whomever Jacob blesses.

The law of primogeniture says the firstborn gets the birthright UNLESS God changes it.

Jacob's firstborn; Reuben committed a sexual sin and God stripped him of the birthright. This means the birthright now goes to whoever God (through Jacob) says it will go.

The birthright has now been given to the TWO sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh.

BUT in Genesis 49:10 God removes TWO specific components of the birthright and gives it to Judah.

Judah receives the right to rule (scepter) and the right to make the laws (lawgiver), EVERYTHING else went to the two sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh, which includes ALL the promises given to Abraham.

GENESIS CHAPTER 38

Why is this chapter in the Bible ?

Its a lurid tale of reality. (this chapter is excellent proof that God controlled the content of scripture, if man did this story would of never made it in) The point of this chapter is to identify to whom Judah's birthright would flow through. Twins are born and the red string around Zerah's hand makes him the firstborn even though he came out second. But Pharez actually comes out first. What this means is that BOTH of them are firstborn and the promises of the right to rule and make the laws will flow through both of them. This is the eternal word of God and the point of this chapter is to establish the facts of the birthright to both of Judah's sons.

RECAP

All the promises given to Abraham - Jacob gave to Ephraim and Manasseh EXCEPT the right to rule/make the laws was given to Judah and his two sons Zerah and Pharez.

Judah and his descendants, the Southern kingdom of Judah - the Jews were never given or promised to be "as the stars of heaven and the sand of the sea". This massive population group was promised to Ephraim and Manasseh who were part of the Northern kingdom - the House of Israel.

In 1kings 11 the kingdom was divided into two nations. When God got fed up with the Northern kingdoms idol worship he allowed Assyria to carry them away into servitude never to return to Palestine. Israel was divorced by God and eventually dispersed across Europe, Scandinavia, and Britain. God did not divorce Judah for her sins but allowed and enabled them to return from exile. Those who returned rebuilt the wall and the Temple (Ezra/Nehemiah era) and those Jews eventually became the sect of the Pharisees (children of Pharez) in Jesus day.

Hosea prophesied to the House of Israel/Northern kingdom.

Hosea Chapter 1:

When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea:

"Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry
And children of harlotry,
For the land has committed great harlotry
By departing from the LORD."

God is going to use Hosea by making him marry a whore in order to depict His pain to see Israel commit idol worship. Then Hosea's wife is going to bare three children whose names God will choose to proclaim a prophetic message.

6And she conceived again and bore a daughter. Then God said to him:

"Call her name Lo-Ruhamah,[1]
For I will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel,
But I will utterly take them away.[2]
7Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah,
Will save them by the LORD their God

The name "Lo-Ruhamah" means "not having mercy" on the House of Israel.

8Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9Then God said:

"Call his name Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.

The next child is named "Lo-Ammi" and it means "not my people" (Israel) God is divorcing and disowning Israel.

10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
"You are not My people,'
There it shall be said to them,
"You are sons of the living God.'

What this means is that in the place that Israel is scattered and dispersed to, they will be forsaken and not look like God's people, they will be in a state of not having mercy THEN in this state they will suddenly become "sons of the living God" AND they will be as numerous as the "sand of the sea which cannot be numbered".

This prophecy clearly identifies Israel and NOT Judah/Jews to be the recipient of Abraham's promises.

Remember, the Southern Kingdom of Judah and its historical perspective is recorded in the books of Chronicles, and their scribes in this verse ADMIT the birthright was Joseph's of whom did not belong to the Southern Kingdom of Judah.

When Israel/Northern 10 tribe Kingdom broke free of Assyrian captivity they fanned out across Europe and landed in Britain eventually. They are not Jews, but Hebrews who have lost their Palestinian Hebrew identity, yet they certainly retained many of their ancestral customs and ways. Yet in this state of being "lost" and "not having mercy" they became known as sons of the living God: Christians.

Jesus said to take the gospel FIRST to the House of Israel.

The apostles did just that. The gospel went first to these forsaken/not having mercy/dispersed 10 tribes. Then in this state of being forsaken and not having mercy they became "sons of the living God"/christians. (Hosea 1) God divorced Israel UNTIL He sent His Son to fulfill the law and kill (crucify) the law. Mosaic law said a man cannot marry another until the first wife died. That "first wife" died on the cross (Law Incarnate) in order for God now to be able to seek out lost Israel and have her restored to Him via the power of the Gospel!

God kept His word to Abraham.

The point is that if God will keep His word to the likes of sinning Abraham, then how much more will He keep His word to us based on the blood of His Son.

That link with the "failed prophecies" is the failure.

[all scripture quotations from the NewKJV]

[source of theology/history Dr. Gene Scott]

Lugubert

Ichabod,

I admire your knowledge and your patience.

However, it doesn't take all your knowledge to realise that you are right on all accounts. A few years of Bible Hebrew and Comparative religion is more than enough.

WILLOWTREE

Generically speaking, the "Christ", whoever that to be - is anointed.

Anointed to do what ?

Answer: Deliver.

Christ means "deliverer".

Then your point here is to say the use of a donkey symbolizes "humility".

Define "humility" ?

The word is the same word translated "meek" when the scripture describes Moses as meek.

"Meek" is derived from the training of horses, as having been brought under control by a master/trainer.

In scripture, donkeys/asses are the symbol of wild sinning mankind deserving their necks broke.

Thus, Jesus is the FIRST Man totally under God's control riding the symbol of mankind's rebellion. This is the CLAIM concerning Jesus - that He was the Divine Son of God - sinless and perfect. He rode a donkey into Jerusalem, giving the ass the first dignified representation in the Bible.

This scene is humility as now properly defined: The Son of God, riding the symbol of Adamkinds sinning nature, into Jerusalem to offer Himself as the Lamb of God to pay the O.T. price for sin - punishment and death - which was God's will for Christ's life - the Deliverer from the penalty of sin.

Even though your point here is critical and derogatory towards Jesus - He did it to fulfill scripture and for the reasons already explained above.


Matthew did not attempt - he did relate that this event fulfilled prophecy. That is why, in part, in recording the event. The claim is that God is writing His word through Matthew. The purpose of God's eternal word is to demonstrate that whatever God says, good or bad or whatever WILL come to pass.

When it is ascertained that God keeps His word, this is intended to give mankind the confidence to have faith that God will keep His word to us in things pertaining to the promises based upon the blood of His Son.

The descrepancy in Matthew's quote differing from Zechariah is because the translators used two different sources for Matthew and another for Zechariah.

In Matthew's day, the LXX was the "Bible".

Matthew was quoting from the LXX and the translators did not use the LXX when translating Zechariah.

The remainder of your post focuses upon this dual body of translators who translated in such a way to have you mistakenly think Matthew misread Zechariah and thus you deduce this to indicate intentional fraud by Matthew.

IF Matthew is writing to deceive then he surely would of quoted Zechariah correctly, the descrepancy is due to different translating bodies using different sources for Matthew and Zechariah.

Vorkosigan

Hot damn! Maybe we can get a copy of Secret Mark from him!

Jackalope

False. "Christ" in koine greek means "ointment," which is the closest translation they could get to the hebrew mosiach or "annointed." If this is an example of your scholarship, you've just sunk yourself.

NOGO

Matthew did not always quote the Septuagint.
For example

This is what the NASB has for Micah 5:2

See how Matthew distorted the OT for his purpose?
Now I will show you why he did not quote the Septuagint.

The Septuagint clearly shows that the text is talking about a person and not a city as Matthew claims. Matthew went fishing for the correct quote which was closest to his claim of prophecy for Jesus. The Septuagint which he usually quoted was too obvious so he chose something else.

Back to the colt.
It does not help your cause to note that both Mark and Luke have Jesus ridding only one animal and not two. Neither one of them think that this was a Micah prophecy.
Also it should be plain to see and understand that Jesus could not have ridden two animals at the same time as Matthew writes.
Matthew simply misundestood what he read and adjusted the story,
just as he adjusted the Bethlehem story.

Amaleq13

Perhaps Jesus spent some time working as a rodeo clown between the carpentry gig and preaching.

Or this is yet another example of the author of Matthew creating a narrative depiction of his faith rather than recording history.

Tough call.