Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 01-11-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Celsus wasn't interested in becoming a Christian. He was a critic. So to have the author put such words in the mouth of Celsus shows that the author used him for rhetorical purposes of propaganda
I agree with Mountainman's point...

Your assertion is unsupported. You simply cannot show or present any evidence that Celsus did NOT write that Christians mutilated the Gospels. It is NOT your imagination that counts it is the SUPPORTING evidence from antiquity.

You, yourself, is NOT A Christian yet is attempting to show that the Jesus story and history of the Jesus cult was Corrupted by Apologetic sources, even so-called Christians.

Celsus did EXACTLY what you are now attempting to do 1800 years later.

"Against Celsus"2

Quote:

After this he says, that certain of the Christian believers....... have corrupted the Gospel from its original integrity, to a threefold, and fourfold, and many-fold degree, and have remodelled it, so that they might be able to answer objections...

Who changed the integrity of the story from the "Indwelling Christ"?????

People today would like to know?????

The Pagans or Christians??????

Duvduv · 01-11-2012, 07:43 AM

But WHAT original integrity??? Would someone like Celsus believe in any integrity of a text of a religion that Celsus thought was a fairy tale?? Since when would a pagan who opposes Christianity believe that their writings have integrity?!

Did I ever say there was an original document that had integrity?
Heck, I'm not even convinced that Eusebius existed or that his book was written in the fourth century.

aa5874 · 01-11-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But WHAT original integrity??? Would someone like Celsus believe in any integrity of a text of a religion that Celsus thought was a fairy tale?? Since when would a pagan who opposes Christianity believe that their writings have integrity?!

Did I ever say there was an original document that had integrity?
Heck, I'm not even convinced that Eusebius existed or that his book was written in the fourth century.

Celsus wrote a document entitled "True Discourse" and made accusations against Christians.

Don't you understand that Celsus was attempting to show that the PRESENT stories of Jesus written by Christians were NOT credible and were corrupted multiple times?

"Against Celsus" 2

Quote:

After this he says, that certain of the Christian believers, like persons who in a fit of drunkenness lay violent hands upon themselves, have corrupted the Gospel from its original integrity, to a threefold, and fourfold, and many-fold degree, and have remodelled it, so that they might be able to answer objections.

Now I know of no others who have altered the Gospel, save the followers of Marcion, and those of Valentinus, and, I think, also those of Lucian. But such an allegation is no charge against the Christian system, but against those who dared so to trifle with the Gospels. .....

Are you not non-Christian but still make the very same accusation against EUSEBIUS and apologetic sources.

Well, Celsus wrote a book, and DOCUMENTED his accusations since the mid 2nd century.

It is clear to me that the Short-ending gMark, the earliest Canonized Jesus story, has been CORRUPTED at least FOUR-FOLD with the Long Ending gMark, gMatthew, gLuke, and gJohn.

Celsus appears to be correct. The original integrity of the Jesus story was CORRUPTED to answer objections.

Duvduv · 01-11-2012, 10:18 AM

But it sounds like he believed there was a true and authentic original that became corrupted. After all, what difference would it make to him who wrote what when if it's all fairy tales.

aa5874 · 01-11-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But it sounds like he believed there was a true and authentic original that became corrupted. After all, what difference would it make to him who wrote what when if it's all fairy tales.

Please read "Against Celsus" because it would seem you are NOT familiar with the arguments of Celsus.

Celsus claimed that [Jesus was the product of ADULTERY and was NOT fathered by a Holy Ghost.

Quote:

But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that “when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera;” and let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost...

I hope you NOW understand the integrity of the original Jesus as stated by Celsus.

The Christians changed the story because Jesus was the PRODUCT of ADULTERY.

Duvduv · 01-11-2012, 11:11 AM

Then it appears that Celsus was led to believe that there was a historical Jesus probably based on the descriptions of Yeshu ben Pandera. Unless he was simply making a theoretical argument.

But he was originally talking about the integrity of the GOSPEL not the integrity as to the true life of Jesus. If he wasn't referring to Pandera, then who led him to believe there was a historical Jesus whose story was corrupted??

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But it sounds like he believed there was a true and authentic original that became corrupted. After all, what difference would it make to him who wrote what when if it's all fairy tales.

Please read "Against Celsus" because it would seem you are NOT familiar with the arguments of Celsus.

Celsus claimed that [Jesus was the product of ADULTERY and was NOT fathered by a Holy Ghost.

Quote:

But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that “when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera;” and let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost...

I hope you NOW understand the integrity of the original Jesus as stated by Celsus.

The Christians changed the story because Jesus was the PRODUCT of ADULTERY.

aa5874 · 01-11-2012, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Then it appears that Celsus was led to believe that there was a historical Jesus probably based on the descriptions of Yeshu ben Pandera. Unless he was simply making a theoretical argument.

But he was originally talking about the integrity of the GOSPEL not the integrity as to the true life of Jesus. If he wasn't referring to Pandera, then who led him to believe there was a historical Jesus whose story was corrupted??...

You don't know what are talking about. Please get familiar with the arguments of Celsus as presented in "Against Celsus".

"Against Celsus" 38

Quote:

But, moreover, taking the history, contained in the Gospel according to Matthew, of our Lord's descent into Egypt, he refuses to believe the miraculous circumstances attending it, viz., either that the angel gave the divine intimation, or that our Lord's quitting Judea and residing in Egypt was an event of any significance; but he invents something altogether different, admitting somehow the miraculous works done by Jesus, by means of which He induced the multitude to follow Him as the Christ.

And yet he desires to throw discredit on them, as being done by help of magic and not by divine power; for he asserts “that he (Jesus), having been brought up as an illegitimate child, and having served for hire in Egypt, and then coming to the knowledge of certain miraculous powers, returned from thence to his own country, and by means of those powers proclaimed himself a god.” ...

Please FIRST read what Celsus claimed about Jesus. It is NOT your imagination that counts.

Celsus' story was that Jesus was an illigitimate child who became a Magician and claimed he was a god.

Duvduv · 01-11-2012, 11:49 AM

So where did "Celsus" get the idea from and who gave him the idea that the Jesus figure was a historical person at all??! In any case, the "integrity" of the identity of an ostensible historical Jesus is far different from the significance of the "integrity" of a gospel teaching.....it wouldn't make sense for Celsus to say that the original gospel religion of the real Christians concerned an Egyptian magician.....

aa5874 · 01-11-2012, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

So where did "Celsus" get the idea from and who gave him the idea that the Jesus figure was a historical person at all??! In any case, the "integrity" of the identity of an ostensible historical Jesus is far different from the significance of the "integrity" of a gospel teaching.....it wouldn't make sense for Celsus to say that the original gospel religion of the real Christians concerned an Egyptian magician.....

Well, where did you get the idea of an "indwelling Christ"? Does it makes sense for you to be talking about an "indwelling Christ" as a non-Christian?

Even today, people make unsubstantiated claims about the character called Jesus that was claimed to have walked on sea-water and transfigured with the resurrected dead in the earliest gMark.

Doug Shaver · 01-12-2012, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your question is either absurd, naive or a combination of both

It was neither. It was a rhetorical question meant to elicit a demonstration of your unquestioning trust in some assertions made by Christian apologists.

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01-11-2012, 07:43 AM	#162
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	But WHAT original integrity??? Would someone like Celsus believe in any integrity of a text of a religion that Celsus thought was a fairy tale?? Since when would a pagan who opposes Christianity believe that their writings have integrity?! Did I ever say there was an original document that had integrity? Heck, I'm not even convinced that Eusebius existed or that his book was written in the fourth century.

01-11-2012, 10:18 AM	#164
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	But it sounds like he believed there was a true and authentic original that became corrupted. After all, what difference would it make to him who wrote what when if it's all fairy tales.

01-11-2012, 11:49 AM	#168
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	So where did "Celsus" get the idea from and who gave him the idea that the Jesus figure was a historical person at all??! In any case, the "integrity" of the identity of an ostensible historical Jesus is far different from the significance of the "integrity" of a gospel teaching.....it wouldn't make sense for Celsus to say that the original gospel religion of the real Christians concerned an Egyptian magician.....

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