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Old 01-06-2008, 06:33 PM   #11
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The writers understood their own grammar when they wrote
"And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness."
The word for said is singular as are all references to )LHYM in Gen 1. However, in Ex 18:11
Now I know that the YHWH is greater than all gods [)LHYM]
)LHYM is clearly indicated as plural. And with plural verb, in Ex 32:23,
Make us gods [)LHYM], which shall go before us
There can be no doubt that in Gen 1:26 )LHYM is singular. That of course is not the end of the story, for everyone will want to know why the rest of 1:26 is in the plural. And no its not the royal plural.

If we look at one of the more interesting psalms, ps82, we find (v.1)
God [)LHYM] has taken his place in the assembly of El
he judges among the gods [)LHYM].
)LHYM is used here both as singular and plural and that was no problem for the writer. But the psalm is more interesting. We have a divine assembly presided over by El (this is usually hidden by some faulty translation). )LHYM is a member of the assembly along with the other )LHYM.

Hidden at the edges of Jewish literature is a council of gods. Look at Deut 32:8-9,
8 When the most high apportioned the nations,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of sons of El;
9 YHWH's portion was his people,
Jacob his allotted share.
Again YHWH is one amongst a number of gods, a son of El. (The translation "sons of El" is from 4QDeutJ; LXX has "angels of god"; MT has "sons of Israel".)

In the abuse against the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14, we find v.13,
You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of El;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
on the heights of Zaphon"
Zaphon, which has come to be used to mean "north" in Hebrew, is the name of the mountain above Ugarit where the assembly of El met. The Jews tended to idealize Mt Zion, the home of YHWH, as the sides of Zaphon, the "sides of the north" (see ps48:2). We've seen elsewhere that Marduk slew Tiamat, the watery chaos dragon; but Baal slew Yamm, the unruly sea, and, having done so, rose on the clouds to Mt Zaphon, the place of the assembly of El (just as the one like a son of man rose on the clouds to the place of the ancient of days, ie El, Dan 7:13).

When we see )LHYM as a member of the assembly of El, then there is no problem understanding him saying
"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."
)LHYM is one of the assembly of the sons of El. However, it is highly probable by the time Gen 1 was written that the assembly of El had been fossilized with the god of Israel taking the place of El through syncretism and that the original idea of making man in "our image" came from the source material and the Jews would have read "our" as referring to the members of the court of YHWH, ie his angels. That is certainly how later Jews understood it when they rewrote the material for Jubilees (a book told to Moses by an angel).


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Old 01-06-2008, 08:26 PM   #12
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The 'plural majestic' does not seem to have been used before the thirteenth century. In Spain, as late as 1598 the form was "Yo, el rey" "I, the King". Elohim oriiginally was a plural noun.

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That's Spanish. It doesn't accurately reflect the lingustic phenomena of the 14th or 4th century BCE.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by spin View Post
The writers understood their own grammar when they wrote
"And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness."
The word for said is singular as are all references to )LHYM in Gen 1.
Thanks spin. Could it be, that Elohim in Gen. 1 was originally plural, but the verbs were later adapted to fit the developing singular theology?
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:13 AM   #14
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And so what about those instances where it is used plurally?

As in "And God(s) said, let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."

Is it really just the "plural majestic?"
I've always doubted it is, just because it was natural for 18th century English royals to refer to themselves in the third person doesn't mean the same custom existed in an entirely unrelated culture and language three thousand years prior. It seems much more likely to me that people have ignorantly backwards projected the notion that a "royal 'we'" existed at that time and place than that anyone has actually researched it to find out. Plus it's so much easier for Christian apologetics to say it's "not really a polytheistic holdover" and hope no one asks "Well, did they even have a "royal we", does that make any damn sense at all?"
The plural majestic is used in the Quran when God is talking about himself. That was before the 18th century. Arabic and Hebrew languages have the same root, so I don't see any problem with Elohim being plural majestic.
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:46 AM   #15
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Could it be, that Elohim in Gen. 1 was originally plural, but the verbs were later adapted to fit the developing singular theology?
The original material on which Gen 1 was based features a single god defeating the sea, Marduk defeats Tiamat, and Baal defeats Yamm, and thus Elohim defeats tehom, the "deep". This suggests that the Gen 1 sublimated hero come creator was always singular -- with an audience to play to.


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Old 01-07-2008, 05:14 AM   #16
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Marduk was only one of many "gods" in the Enuma Elish; there were the primordial "gods" (probably astral deities - sun moon planets stars) and there were the Anunnaki "those from Heaven to Earth came."

Not only did he slay the watery monster Tiamat, but he was also the "founder of the assembly of the gods" which seems a rather clear parallel (origin?) of the Hebrew divine council.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:26 AM   #17
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I've always doubted it is, just because it was natural for 18th century English royals to refer to themselves in the third person doesn't mean the same custom existed in an entirely unrelated culture and language three thousand years prior. It seems much more likely to me that people have ignorantly backwards projected the notion that a "royal 'we'" existed at that time and place than that anyone has actually researched it to find out. Plus it's so much easier for Christian apologetics to say it's "not really a polytheistic holdover" and hope no one asks "Well, did they even have a "royal we", does that make any damn sense at all?"
The plural majestic is used in the Quran when God is talking about himself. That was before the 18th century. Arabic and Hebrew languages have the same root, so I don't see any problem with Elohim being plural majestic.
Given that Arabic and Hebrew share the same root I'd say the Quran's use of plural "gods" too, is a likely remanant of the earlier mesopotamian polytheistic tales.
Ibrahim, no doubt, was familiar with these stories.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:56 AM   #18
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Marduk was only one of many "gods" in the Enuma Elish; there were the primordial "gods" (probably astral deities - sun moon planets stars) and there were the Anunnaki "those from Heaven to Earth came."

Not only did he slay the watery monster Tiamat, but he was also the "founder of the assembly of the gods" which seems a rather clear parallel (origin?) of the Hebrew divine council.
Here is a recent thread regarding the Enuma Elish being source material for Genesis, if anyone missed it.

And so this is the "original material" spin and I are referencing.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:08 AM   #19
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The plural majestic is used in the Quran when God is talking about himself. That was before the 18th century. Arabic and Hebrew languages have the same root, so I don't see any problem with Elohim being plural majestic.
Given that Arabic and Hebrew share the same root I'd say the Quran's use of plural "gods" too, is a likely remanant of the earlier mesopotamian polytheistic tales.
Ibrahim, no doubt, was familiar with these stories.
That's possible, but the Qur'aan is obviously dependent on the OT, so it's more likely IMO that that former borrowed the pluralis majestatis from the latter.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:17 AM   #20
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Given that Arabic and Hebrew share the same root I'd say the Quran's use of plural "gods" too, is a likely remanant of the earlier mesopotamian polytheistic tales.
Ibrahim, no doubt, was familiar with these stories.
That's possible, but the Qur'aan is obviously dependent on the OT, so it's more likely IMO that that former borrowed the pluralis majestatis from the latter.
I find that most likely as well, except I don't think in its original context the plural "gods" were meant to be singular pluralis majestatis.
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