Layman

Just spell it out for me. Which "90 page" book that was published after the Resurrection of the Son of God are you talking about? I am not aware of any. I think you are just being obscure to avoid admitting you just won't buy or even borrow the book you think you are refuting.

Steven Carr

LAYMAN
'According to Wright, when a believer dies his consciousness lives on in the presence of Jesus.'

CARR
So the disciples saw a consciousness, when they saw Moses?

How do you do that then?

I notice you don't seem to quote Wright on what exactly appeared to the disciples.

Although we do have a concession that the disciples were quite happy with the idea of seeing non-physical appearances of dead prophets.

Jim Larmore says Elijah had a glorified body when he appeared with Moses.

Elijah did not die, so why was his flesh-and-blood not perishable?

How did Elijah's flesh-and-blood inherit the Kingdom of God? Or was Elijah 'resurrected'?

I do like your circular reasoning. Moses was not resurrected when he appeared because it was not bodily, and we know it was not bodily, because it was not a resurrection.

BTW, Wright's new book is called 'For All The Saints', and I refer you again to interviews of him where he denies people have a soul.

CARR:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When in Matthew , the saints were resurrected from their conscious and active intermediate state, were they resurrected bodily or physically? Did they die again?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


LAYMAN
I think the implication is that it was bodily.



CARR (now)
Poor things. One minute in a conscious, but happy state with Christ. The next resurrected . knowing you have to go through the pain of dying again, just so you can go back to the conscious, but happy, state you were already in. Heaven knows what sort of body these people got.

It wasn't a glorified , transformed body, as that comes later.

Presumably they all looked like creatures from the Return of the Evil Dead.

If they didn't get a glorified , never to die again body, how did they manage with the collection of rotting bones and decaying limbs that they had?

Or perhaps they had a 'glorified and transformed a little bit' body, enough to keep them going for a few weeks, while their final body was being got ready for them?

Layman

They saw two manifestations of them.

I do not know.

I noticed you can't seem to quote much of anything from Wright. I've quoted Wright plenty on his belief in the intermediate state. I don't know what he thought Moses and Elijah were. It's possible he thought they were spirits/souls. It's possible he thought they were something else. Since I have not read what he wrote on this, I don't want to say I know what he believes about it.

Nothing to concede. No doubt they were quite impressed.

I haven't followed your argument with him.

Peter Kirby says Paul was probably referring to a physical resurrection.

That's actually a good point. I suppose it's possible that Elijah experienced then what we Christians will experience at the end of this age. This would include Enoch as well. Some have speculated that they are intended to be the two witnesses in Revelation 11.

Nothing circular about it. Resurrection means something. that something is not the survival of the soul/spirit after death. It's the resurrection of the "soma" at the end of the present age.

You forgot to pinpoint the reference. Or quote the language.

All we know is what was written:

Mat 27:52-3: The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

The term "soma" for bodies certainly suggests that whatever happened involved the physical. I suspect Matthew saw this as an example of the power of Jesus' resurrection and the anticipation of the resurrection of Christians at the end of the age. How do you know they were not transformed bodies? How do you know they were going to die again? I doubt very seriouly that Matthew has some goulish scene from Halloween which you seem to envision.

Also, how does this pose any problem for Wright's theories? It does not suggest--as you may still hold--that the early Christians believed in a nonphysical resurrection. Just the opposite. It also does not seem to have any relevance about the existence of an intermediate state or the immortality of the soul/spirit.

And since these were dead before Christ, I'm not sure you can assume Paul envisioned that they were "with Christ" in their intermediate state. Presumably, given Paul's pharisiac background, Wright would believe Paul saw them as existing in some form of intermediate conscious state.

Steven Carr

I quoted where Wright says that Messianic groups can use misunderstood terms from other worldviews, and use words in ways which go against their own ancient literature.

But Messianic groups can use the word in new ways. How do we know that Christians did not do that?

I would have thought this was EXACTLY the sort of thing that was on-topic for his resurrection book. Suprising if he left it out.

Again , you keep on distorting my position.

I agree Paul meant a physical resurrection.

But our old body would be discarded, and we would get a new ethereal, perfect body , made in Heaven, and not made on Earth, and no more related to our present body than is the discarded seed case to the plant which emerges from it.

Interesting that the saints also had transformed bodies, and are still alive somewhere.

It is all still totally ad hoc.

Dead people go to a conscious but happy state, except those who don't.

And only Jesus was resurrected with a transformed , new body except the saints who were given new bodies to replace their rotting limbs.

People with transformed bodies never die again (except the saints), but it is possible to come back as a resusciated body like Lazarus.

And the disciples could not have conceived of a return from the grave in a non-physical form, except for what they proclaimed was a return from the grave in a non-physical form.

And finally all flesh-and-blood is perishable, except those that never perished like Elijah, who somehow lost his body or got a new one when he appeared with Moses, except Moses was also non-physical.

Then presumably Elijah went back to his flesh-and-blood perishable body after appearing as a consciousness (and you have no idea how that is possible), and will be given a new imperishable body to replace his perishable body that never perished.

Truly, with God all things are possible.

Layman

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steven Carr
I quoted where Wright says that Messianic groups can use misunderstood terms from other worldviews, and use words in ways which go against their own ancient literature.

From an online exceprt. So far you have refused to buy his book on the resurrection because it was too small and because it was too big.

I'm sure some did do that.

He discusses the event, but it's rather irrelevant what form they took.

You have been far from clear about your position.

Paul does not talk about the seed case. He talks about the seed growing into a plant. Just as is recorded in Rabbinc tradition.

I repeat:

Second, you have committed shameless contortions to ignore the obvious implication of the seed analogy. Paul is not talking about a seed husk, but the seed itself--which is transformed into the plant. A seed is not a magic pill that unleashes some mystical energy. The seed becomes the plant.

As such, it is a fitting analogy to the concept of bodily resurrection held by the Pharisees. And, as I have shown, the Pharisees used the same analogy as Paul to stress the transformation of the body into a new, glorious being. The seed analogy explains the continuity with radical change quite nicely.

The context is a story of a Rabbi explaining the concept of the resurrection to an Egyptian who has questions about how the body is raised, and seems especially concerned about its nakedness.

From the Talmud:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Grain of Wheat

Queen Cleopatra said to Rabbi Meir:
--"I know that the dead will live, for it is written:
--'like the grass of the ground they shall sprout from the city' (Ps 72:16). But when they rise, will they rise up naked or in their garments?"
He said to her, (arguing) from less to greater [qal wahomer]from a grain of wheat:
--"And what of a grain of wheat which is buried naked? It rises up in so many garments. How much more the righteous, who are buried in their garments!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 90b
http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/parable.html#wheat

The saints will have transformed bodies.

To what are you referring?

That is the rule. Apparently there are two exceptions.

Ah, I see. You are referring to the saints in Matthew. Whatever happened to them followed Jesus' resurrection.

Where did I say they died again? I do not think we know what Matthew thinks happened to them.

I'm not sure all that they could have conceived, just what they reported and preached.

There are two reports of people who did not die. Elijah and Enoch. I'm not sure if Elijah appeared in spirit apart form his body with the spirit of Moses, or if Elijah and Moses both had transformed bodies as a foretaste of the resurrection. It's not clear.

No, like I said, I suspect Elijah had a transformed body when he was taken into heaven.

That is true.

Bernard Muller

Layman wrote: Ah, I see. You are referring to the saints in Matthew. Whatever happened to them followed Jesus' resurrection.

According to Matthew27:50-53
"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
That's from the NIV.

But other translations have the tombs opening and the saints arising at the time of Jesus' death, with those saints getting out of the tombs days later!

"And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."
That's from the NASB.

But still other translations have the arising and the saints out of the tombs after Jesus' own resurrection.

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
That's from the KJV

Which translation do you endorse Layman?
The Greek favors the second translation, that means the dead got alive in their opened tombs (but stayed there) from the time of Jesus' death, but actually got out of their tombs after Jesus' resurrected, some 40 hours later. Make sense?

Best regards, Bernard

Jim Larmore

Bernard,
It doesn't say they were awakened out of their sleep and stayed in their graves until Jesus was resurrected. It says the "graves were opened" and many who slept arose after his resurrection. I think the main word to look at here is the word sleep or slept. This word is used 66 times in the Bible when referring to death. Absolutely no where does it say that the dead live on in any state after they die, on the contrary in Ps 115: it says the dead praise not the lord. Ecc 9:5 the dead know not anything. Jesus called death a sleep when He was referring to Lazarus' death. Theres no place in the Bible where it says a soul is immortal or undying as a matter of fact in Ezek it says souls do die.