Originally Posted by Matt Stone

There's the problem... Why does it have to be hidden? Why can't simple information, that an allegedly all-everything deity apparently wants me to have because he really, really loves me, be promulgated in a manner in which there is little room to debate its authenticity and veracity? With free will, mankind will still have the choice to listen or not - just like children growing up in their parents' homes - so that's a non-issue.

Why the smoke and mirrors? Why all the bad poetry and confusing wording? Why can't God just say what he has to say, in a manner that won't befuddle the listeners (regardless of their cultural and linguistic origins), and let us work it out from there?

Because holy books are written by men to subjugate the intellects of other men, providing the writers with power, position, and entitlement. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by sonofone

Matt it 's only hidden from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes.Even so because it seemed good in the sight of God.

Originally Posted by sonofone

Matt it's only hidden from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes. Even so because it seemed good in the sight of God.

Originally Posted by sonofone

Silly me, John. As I stated to you on your original post, I hold out no expectation of convincing an atheist or agnostic to change by reason of anything I or the word of God has to say.

Originally Posted by sonofone

That was not my purpose in joining the forum. We are both benefiting from the exchange of information as what each other states only serves to make each other's beliefs stronger.

Originally Posted by allabouttruth.org

All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial

How do we know that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial to us?

The Bible tells us that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

1 Corinthians 2:13 states, "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words." God impressed man with His message, then the individual author, using his own style of expression based on his personal, educational, and cultural resources put the message into words.

Romans 10:8 phrased it this way: ". . .The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart. . ." God communicated to the author the content that He wanted written, and the author phrased the content with his skill, style, mind, and language. We can be certain that, although the very words came from each author, the message was as God had intended and is authentic, reliable, and infallible.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 reads, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." We are told that the Bible is not only the words of God, but it has great benefit to us.

Colossians 3:16 admonishes us to "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

The psalmist tells us in Psalms 119:11 that God's Word protects us from sin: "I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you." From God's very first contact with man in Genesis to the final phrases of Revelation, He gave Scriptures to guide man's conduct.

However, man did not obey God's instruction from the beginning and sin entered the world through Adam. Since that time man has continued to challenge God's Word through disobedience. We have failed to see the tremendous benefits and blessings we could have received and instead suffered the consequences of our actions: sickness, wars, plagues, and curses.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 pleads with us to make the right choice: "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. . ."

The only way to truly understand the concept of blessings that come through obedience and following God's words is to put them to the test. If we want God to bless us and to care for us and keep His wonderful promises to us, then we must submit to the guidance that He has given us for living. I know that in my own life, I sometimes see God's words as a bit odd next to the standards set by this world and therefore find them hard to comprehend and follow. Yet when I challenge those odd words by obeying them, I have found God to do exactly as He said He would do.

For example, Matthew 5:44 tells us, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." That is a very strange concept in this world. Yet when my husband and I started praying for his very difficult boss, the entire work situation and their relationship changed. It was phenomenal! His boss seemed to become more personable and somehow less demanding. "Give and it will be given you. . ." (Luke 6:38).

How can you give and yet get back more? I have found it impossible to out give God. It is when I give up trying to solve situations on my own and seek wisdom from God's words in the Bible, that I find the answers and solutions that I could not find on my own. When I regularly read the Bible and apply it in my life, I begin to clearly see God, and learn to understand His plan for my life. "I applied my heart to know, to search and seek out wisdom and the reason for things" (Ecclesiastes 7:25 NKJV).

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

No only that, but will not be able to change the minds of any non-Christian theists who might read your posts.


You have an inaccurate understanding of how religious debates work at debate forums. As far as the IIDB is concerned, and probably all other debate forums, only rarely does a person who debates change their worldview. It is the undecided crowd who both sides have the best chance to influence. I am confident that in the opionions of the undecided crowd, most of whom do not make posts, your arguments will not, and have not been accepted. Your personal feelings will not convince anyone of anything.

Regarding making each other's beliefs stronger, I believe that you are doing a much better job of strengthening skeptics' beliefs and non-Christian theists beliefs than they are strengthening your beliefs.

I believe that you have contradicted yourself. You have said on more than one occasion that you do not have any choice except to remain a Christian. If that was true, you would not need to strenghthen your faith. Do you believe in "once saved, always saved"? If so, then even if your faith became weak, you would still be saved, in which case there would be no need for you to try to strengthen your faith.

Originally Posted by sonofone

I have listened to you and others here and as I said it only goes to show me that the scriptures are accurate in their description of you. Which reinforces my faith.

Originally Posted by allabouttruth.org

All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial

How do we know that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial to us?

The Bible tells us that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

1 Corinthians 2:13 states, "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words." God impressed man with His message, then the individual author, using his own style of expression based on his personal, educational, and cultural resources put the message into words.

Romans 10:8 phrased it this way: ". . .The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart. . ." God communicated to the author the content that He wanted written, and the author phrased the content with his skill, style, mind, and language. We can be certain that, although the very words came from each author, the message was as God had intended and is authentic, reliable, and infallible.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 reads, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." We are told that the Bible is not only the words of God, but it has great benefit to us.

Colossians 3:16 admonishes us to "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

The psalmist tells us in Psalms 119:11 that God's Word protects us from sin: "I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you." From God's very first contact with man in Genesis to the final phrases of Revelation, He gave Scriptures to guide man's conduct.

However, man did not obey God's instruction from the beginning and sin entered the world through Adam. Since that time man has continued to challenge God's Word through disobedience. We have failed to see the tremendous benefits and blessings we could have received and instead suffered the consequences of our actions: sickness, wars, plagues, and curses.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 pleads with us to make the right choice: "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. . ."

The only way to truly understand the concept of blessings that come through obedience and following God's words is to put them to the test. If we want God to bless us and to care for us and keep His wonderful promises to us, then we must submit to the guidance that He has given us for living. I know that in my own life, I sometimes see God's words as a bit odd next to the standards set by this world and therefore find them hard to comprehend and follow. Yet when I challenge those odd words by obeying them, I have found God to do exactly as He said He would do.

For example, Matthew 5:44 tells us, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." That is a very strange concept in this world. Yet when my husband and I started praying for his very difficult boss, the entire work situation and their relationship changed. It was phenomenal! His boss seemed to become more personable and somehow less demanding. "Give and it will be given you. . ." (Luke 6:38).

How can you give and yet get back more? I have found it impossible to out give God. It is when I give up trying to solve situations on my own and seek wisdom from God's words in the Bible, that I find the answers and solutions that I could not find on my own. When I regularly read the Bible and apply it in my life, I begin to clearly see God, and learn to understand His plan for my life. "I applied my heart to know, to search and seek out wisdom and the reason for things" (Ecclesiastes 7:25 NKJV).

Originally Posted by sonofone

Silly me John.As I stated to you on your original post. I hold out no expectation of convincing an atheist or agnostic to change by reason of anything I or the word of God has to say.That was not my purpose in joining the forum.We are both benefiting from the exchange of information as what each other states only serves to make each other beliefs stronger.:grin: