Crowley

I posed this issue in another thread that withered and died shortly thereafter. Desiring to have an actual theistic response or to hear responses other atheists have heard I decided to repost it here.


If Jesus is the only way to heaven, if no man could fulfill the law so a god-man sacrifice was required, if all men are born sinners and commit sin, how do you explain Elijah?

You know Elijah, right? Fiery chariot. Ascended to heaven. Was perfect in god's eyes.

So, if even ONE man is able to enter heaven without the "blood of Christ" is not the NT invalidated from a sacrifice/salvation standpoint?

Crowley

Soul Invictus

For some reason Enoch comes to mind as well. Gotta check my sources...

You do make for a convincing point.

Silent Acorns

<fundyhat = on> Obviously, this misunderstanding is due to a transcription error from the original inerrant text ... </fundyhat>

Magus55

First of all, do you have the verse? Second, who said Elijah didn't have the blood of Christ? The OT saints looked forward to the redemption of Christ, the NT saints look back on it. People in the OT were saved the same way, faith in God and the animal sacrifices symbolized the true Sacrifice to come by Christ. And Elijah and Enoch probably aren't finished their purpose. They are said to be the 2 witnesses in Revelation, and are eventually killed.

Postcard73

If people in OT times were saved by faith and animal sacrifice, then why was Jesus' death and resurrection necessary?

Valdemar

hahahahaha:notworthy

Magus55

Because animal sacrifices were just symbolic, and a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice was always the plan to save humanity. But before He was born, animal sacrifices were used to substitute the true sacrifice. Why do you think Jesus is called the Lamb of God? Lambs were sacrificed in the OT, but Jesus was the true Lamb.

winstonjen

So why is your god so bloodthirsty? Why can't repentance and restitution be a punishment for sin?

Yahzi

I gotta give you credit for the swing, dude, but it's all air.

Elijah went to Heaven before Jesus was born. He didn't hang around in Purgatory or something waiting for the JC event. He went straight to Heaven, bodily, while he was still alive.

You've said before that God cannot abide the presence of sin, and that Jesus washed away the sin. You can't have Jesus's future plans being good enough to wash away the sins, because then it becomes clear that all this washing is just metaphor. Clearly Eljiah's sins weren't washed away by as yet non-existent blood of the as yet non-existent Jesus on the as yes non-existent cross. So either God can abide the presence of sin, or he can get rid of sin before JC. Either way, you end up wondering why we had JC in the first place, except as some kind of lame-ass accounting trick.

Does God run the universe like Enron?

Soul Invictus

Actually, my understanding was that the animal sacrifices were for unintentional sins. Prayer was a sufficient medium as well.