aa5874

I am not too sure about that.

It was believed at one time that the "TF" (Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3) predated Eusebius by hundreds of years. Now, it is a different story.

The writings of Josephus were corrupted, why is it not possible that those of Marcion were also corrupted?

I don't think Marcion ever saw a single letter with a name Paul or a gospel that was according to some Luke.

Switch89

No, aa. The manuscripts I refer to were radiocarbon dated to the third century. Of course, the originals are much older. I don't have time now, but look up the manuscripts for oldest letters.

aa5874

No, you look it up. You must have time. You had time to post. Get time to support your statements.

Have you ever seen a radiocarbon-dated manuscript with a specific day, month and year?
Look it up.

Ben C Smith

This does not work. Apostle is a rank. Cephas is not. Even if one were to grant you the entirety of all papal claims about Peter (quite a stretch, IMVHO), Cephas is still a name, not a rank.

You can no more assume that every item on this list is an office because Cephas holds an office than you can assume that every item on this list is a name because the apostles have names. The list is mixed, plain and simple. Within this verse considered on its own merits, brothers of the Lord could refer to literal blood brothers of the Lord, or brothers of the Lord could refer to a group that goes by that title.

Ben.

Clivedurdle

Early Rock band?

mikem

I don't think this question is ever going to be resolved, but in my opinion Paul is referring to Jesus flesh and blood brothers. The background is that Paul on his journeys normally financially supported himself by doing a little tent making, whereas these others, apostles and Lord's brothers, did not need to do this, but relied on the churches to finance their trips. Paul is keen to underline his position as an apostle, as one who had seen the Lord. The brothers of the Lord were clearly not regarded as apostles, but if they were indeed Jesus flesh and blood brothers, then they would occupy a unique place in the early church. They would be celebrities, and would no doubt have been able to trade on that.

It seems more natural to regard the use of the term here as flesh and blood brothers, rather than in a metaphorical sense.

As time went on however, and the church became more cosmopolitan, it seems that Jesus natural family became less important. Perhaps the Paulinists in the church didn't want to be reminded that Jesus had a natural and large extended family, they got rather pushed into the background. However, they did seem to enjoy something of a revival, according to Eusebius.

He refers to the grandsons of Jude, also a brother of Jesus. His source is a certain Hegessipus. These grandsons of Jude were brought before the Emperor Domitian (AD 81 - 96). Domitian was rooting out any Jews who were suspected of being descended from King David and having them executed. When he saw that Jude's grandsons were nothing more than harmless peasant farmers he let them go. See Eusebius Church History Book 3 chapter 20 for the story. Eusebius refers to Jude as "the brother, humanly speaking, of the Saviour". Eusebius tells us that when these two were released by Domitian they became leaders in the church, both because they had borne witness to the Lord, and also because they were, humanly speaking, his kin. We don't hear anything about Jesus natural family after this though.

Ben C Smith

Which would be why they hired Cephas* as their lead singer.

Ben.

* Aramaic for rock; think Rocky.

Ben C Smith

Original Greek available from my Hegesippus page.

Ben.

Switch89

Thanks for the helpful criticisms Ben. If I may: Cephas is certainly not a rank, but Cephas certainly was viewed as a pillar upon which the early church was built (Gal. 2:19; Matt. 16:18).

As for Cephas, he may not have had a particular office, he may have simply been a great and widely reverred leader of the church, perhaps having more power than any other (I think the fact that Matthew singles him out as the rock is good evidence of this). So Paul's listing looks like this:

Apostles - Messengers of Jesus Christ.

Brothers of the Lord - Siblings of Jesus OR High-ranking church members.

Cephas - The "Rock" Upon which the church is built. Perhaps the greatest leader of the early church.

If I am right that the "brothers of the Lord" were not siblings of Jesus, it would mean that this passage shows an ascending hierarchy of power within the church (although not all of these are ranks, at least one is a real name).

The last point you made was very good, I thought. I'm doing more research into this as we speak.

Ryan

Ben C Smith

I think these could be ascending ranks (as it were) even if the brothers of the Lord are literal brothers. (It is not at all clear to me that literal siblings would have to occupy either the highest or the lowest offices in the church.)

Ben.