andrewcriddle

Hi Philosopher Jay

Polycarp appears to have been (at least) 86 years old at death Maryrdom of Polycarp The exact date of death of Polycarp is uncertain IMVHO it was in 161 CE, though many would date it earlier and a few later. Using 161 Polycarp was born in 75 CE

The question as to whether or not Polycarp could have met any apostles, depends on how plausible one finds ancient claims such as the apostle John living into the late 90's CE.



Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

This seems wrong as stated. The 15 years for the age of Polycarp when taught by the apostle should not be included. On the given assumptions, which I agree are generous, we have a minimum total of 140 years between the time of the birth of the apostle and Polycarp's trip to Rome.

Andrew Criddle

Vinnie

It must have been a miracle.

Vinnie

aa5874

That's right. Against Heresies is about the miracle man, Creator of heaven and earth, the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God who transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds.

This is Irenaeus on Jesus the Word of God in Against Heresies 5.12.6 There was no canon of four gospels as described in Against Heresies. It would appear no church writer ever read the book before Eusebius.

None wrote about or responded to the heresy of Irenaeus where he propagated the heresy that Jesus was over fifty years old when he died.

avi

Yes, I agree with you, that the probability is very low that Polycarp really did meet John in his youth, and then survived into his 90's, especially given the reign of terror with persecution against Christians, but, there is another problem here.

How many 85 year old folks are demented? There are TWO senior citizens here, the first, the supposed apostle John, the second, Polycarp himself.

So, we are not only dealing with the improbability of two old guys living as practicing Christians in an era when many of those sort became lion food, but also with the even more improbable circumstance that two octa/nonagenarians remained in full possession of their mental faculties. Too improbable for my taste.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Andrew,

I did make a miscalculation. Thanks for the Correction.

Here is how I made the mistake.

I supposed Apostle X is 20 in the year 30. He was born in the year 10 C.E.. I assumed at 65 in the year 75 C.E., he met Polycarp. Polycarp is 15 years old, and born in the year 60 C.E. In the year 150 C.E., at the age of 90, Polycarp goes to meet Anicetus in Rome. We now have two people, one who has lived to 90 and one who has lived to be 65.

My mistake was that I simply added the two ages together to get 155. In fact, Polycarp and Apostle X would have lived 15 overlapping years together, so it is actually 140 years from the time of the apostle's birth in 10 C.E. to Polycarp's trip in 150 C.E.

Using the Martydom of Polycarp date of Polycarp being born in 75, we can bring Polycarp's age down, but we still have to raise the Apostle's age at the time of meeting.

If the Apostle met Polycarp at the age of 15 in 90 C.E., then the Apostle lived to be 80 years old and Polycarp was 75, in the best case when he made the trip to Rome.

This does bring it more into the realm of the possible. However, there is also the problem that Avi pointed out about diminished capacities in old age. How much would a 15 year old learn from an 80 year old?

Personally, I visited my grandparents who were in their 70's (born in the 1890's) about twice a month from ages 5-15. The only things I remember is that they gave me two dollars and offered me fruit and cookies whenever I came. I do not remember a single word either of them said to me.

Repeating my experiment of comparing it to modern times. It would be the equivalent of someone today claiming to be a student of a man born in 1869 (140 years ago). Picking three famous people at random, we have:

William Strunk Jr., who was born in 1869 and died in 1946 at the age of 77. He is famous for writing the book the Elements of style, an English usage manual.

King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy, who was born in 1869 and died in 1947. He is best known for bringing Mussolini to power by appointing him prime minister in 1922.

Ben Turpin, the great cross-eyed silent film comedian who worked with Chaplin, Laurel and Hardy and many others into the 1930's. He was born in 1869. He died in 1940.

There are probably a good number of people (perhaps hundreds) alive today who were born in the 1920's who personally knew one of these three men. Such people would be in their 80's and 90's today. It is hard to know if any could survive a long sea voyage of several weeks on an ancient Roman galleon ship.

Taking into account the differing demographics and pathologies between now and ancient Rome, one may reasonably and fairly look at the tale with much skepticism.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

spamandham

Of those who made it past childhood, the typical lifespan was 45. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centenarian

I think it fair to conclude based on that, that the probability of living to the age of 75 in the first 2 centuries was practically zero, so there really isn't any need to even consider dementia. It's fair to conclude based on age alone, that this scenario is not historical.

jakejonesiv

No need for revision. I was merely stating the obvious.

Two assumptions;

#1 an intermediate text
#2 the word order can only be the result of the order of the evangelists.

I don't accept either one, but even if #1 is true, #2 doesn't necessarily follow.

It is interesting speculation, but nothing stronger than that.

I think the last comment is the most parsimonious explanation.

Best,
Jake

Vinnie

Practically 0? Dd you read the rest of the article?

spamandham

Yes. What in particular are you referring to?