Iasion

Greetings Don,

There are several books from the period which show the following views :

* there are various planes of existance ("worlds", "spheres", dimensions).

* these planes form a hierarchy - earth (bottom) .. heaven (top)

* higher beings inhabit the higher planes and can descend earthwards to interact with people

* people can rise up into higher planes to see these beings

* actions on the higher planes affect our world and lives.


The Dream of Scipio
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...eamScipio.html

The Vision of Arideus
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...rchVision.html

And several Jewish and Christian books of the period:

The Vision in 1 Enoch:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...ty/1Enoch.html

The Apocalypse in 2 Enoch:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...ty/2Enoch.html

The Apocalypse of Zephaniah
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...Zephaniah.html

4 Ezra:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...ity/4Ezra.html

2 Baruch:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...y/2Baruch.html

The Apocalypse of Adam
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin.../ApocAdam.html

These documents describe beings who live and move on the higher planes, and affect human lives from there.

Such views help to support views Earl's claim.


Iasion

GakuseiDon

Iasion, you and jakejones (and I suspect Earl himself) misunderstand my criticism here. It isn't that the people of that time didn't believe in a multi-tiered universe -- I've stated that they did so believe many times -- the problem is Earl's claim that they believed in a "world of myth" where the gods acted out those myths. For example, that there is a higher reality where Attis gets castrated. My point is that there is nothing in the literature that indicates that. If you can find that in any of the above links, please let me know.

Let's take your link to Cicero's "The Dream of Scipio" you give above for an example. The author writes (my emphasis):

Now know that the Universe consists of nine circles or rather Spheres, all connected together, one of which is celestial and the furthest off, embracing all the rest, the supreme Deity preserving and governing the others. In this sphere are traced the eternal revolutions of the Stars and to it are subject the seven spheres which revolve backwards with a contrary motion to that of the Celestial Sphere.

The first (of these Seven) Spheres is occupied by the Star which on Earth is called Saturn.

Next comes the sphere of that splendid Star, salutary and fortunate to the human race, called Jupiter.

Then comes the Red Sphere, terrible to the Earth, which you call Mars,

Following beneath these spheres, and in almost the middle region, is placed the Sun, the Leader, Chief and Governor of the other Lights, the mind of the World and the organizing principle,—of such wondrous magnitude that it illuminates and impregnates every part of the Universe with its Light.

The Spheres of Venus and Mercury in their respective courses follow the Sun as companions.

In the lowest Sphere the Moon revolves illumined by the rays of the Sun.

Below this in truth nothing exists which is not subject to death and decay, save indeed the Souls, which by the gift of the Gods are bestowed upon the human race.

Above the Moon all things are eternal, but the sphere of the Earth, which occupies a middle place and comes ninth19 does not move: it is the lowest and to it all ponderable bodies are born by their own gravity."

That's fairly standard stuff. And there is nothing like a "world of myth" concept here.

Now, I've never said that Paul couldn't have had his own unique views. But IMO the strength of Earl's claim was that the "world of myth" was something believed in by "the average pagan". IMO there is no evidence for his claim, and IMO that cuts the feet out from under the claim.

GakuseiDon

I think we would need to look at the author and what he was actually claiming. I suspect we would find the same beliefs from people at that time -- either on earth, or as allegory, thus not existing at all. I've read that the firmament was a representation of Zeus, for example.

If your questions aren't rhetorical, I'd be interested to what you find out, Jake.

Yes, agreed. Even if Jesus was believed to have been crucified on earth, it wouldn't make it a historical fact.

Iasion

Greetings,

Well,
is there a distinction I am missing here?

I showed examples where higher beings took actions on the higher planes which affected the people on the lower plane - which seems to me to be exactly what Earl claims.


Dream of Scipio.

For example, the hero Scipio meets with a human hero, now deceased and part of the heavenly choir. The dead hero instructs the younger Scipio in world events to come.

So,
The myth is that Scipio visited the higher planes and met a higher being who acted to inform him of the future. This higher being acted on the higher planes to affect people down here.

Cicero wrote about this myth. Surely that is clear and present evidence of what you seek? Evidence that (some) people in those times believed there was a higher plane where higher beings acted to affect the world.


Or the Vision of Arideus :

Arideus visits the higher planes, speaks to higher beings and observes the ACTIONS these higher beings are performing, such as :

"Their next stop was to see people being punished. At first, this was simply a distressing and pitiful sight, but then Thespesius started to come across friends, relatives and acquaint-ances being punished; and this was a shock. "

Here we see the higher beings ACTING out the "myth" of punishment of the guilty after death.

This is clear and present evidence of
"the gods act[ing] out those myths"


Or the Vision of Isaiah :

Isaiah meets with various denizens of the various heavens, one of them acts to guide Isaiah up through the ranks. In this case the "myth" is that a person can rise up the planes and learn from the higher beings. The angel acts in the world of myth by guiding Isaiah through the planes.


Or the vision in 1 Enoch :

33And he spoke to the man who wrote in his presence, who was one of the seven white ones, saying, Take those seventy shepherds, to whom I delivered up the sheep, and who receiving them killed more of them than I commanded. Behold, I saw them all bound, and standing before him. First came on the trial of the stars, which, being judged, and found guilty, went to the place of punishment. They thrust them into a place, deep, and full of flaming fire, and full of pillars of fire. Then the seventy shepherds were judged, and being found guilty, were thrust into the flaming abyss.

Enoch describes various beings and events on the higher planes - in this case about sheep and shepherds. We see a higher being acting against some guilty shepherds.

Once again, a higher being, from the world of myth, acts out a mythic event.

Or the Vision in 2 Enoch :

Again we see a person shown the higher planes, and the ACTIONS the higher beings take there which affect humans, e.g. :

3And those men said to me: This place, O Enoch, is prepared for those who dishonour God, who on earth practice sin against nature, which is child-corruption after the sodomitic fashion, magic-making, enchantments and devilish witchcrafts, and who boast of their wicked deeds, stealing, lies, calumnies, envy, rancour, fornication, murder, and who, accursed, steal the souls of men, who, seeing the poor take away their goods and themselves wax rich, injuring them for other men’s goods; who being able to satisfy the empty, made the hungering to die; being able to clothe, stripped the naked; and who knew not their creator, and bowed to the soulless and lifeless gods, who cannot see nor hear, vain gods, who also built hewn images and bow down to unclean handiwork, for all these is prepared this place among these, for eternal inheritance.

The higher beings act out the common myth of punishing the guilty after death.


Similarly from the The Apocalypse of Zephaniah :

B. I saw a soul which five thousand angels punished and guarded. 2They took it to the East and they brought it to the West. They beat its . . . they gave it a hundred . . . lashes for each one daily. 3I was afraid and I cast myself upon my face so that my joints dissolved. 4The angel helped me. He said to me, "Be strong, O one who will triumph, and prevail so that you will triumph over the accuser and you will come up from Hades." 5And after I arose I said, "Who is this whom they are punishing?" 6He said to me, "This is a soul which was found in its lawlessness."

Here we see higher beings acting on the higher planes, the world of "myth" - acting out the myth of punishing the guilty after death.


Or finally,
consider Hebrews which contrasts the earthly with the heavenly :

“the real sanctuary, the tent pitched by the Lord and not by man” (8:2).

The tent of Christ’s priesthood “is a greater and more perfect one, not made by men’s hands, not part of the created world” (9:11).

Here we see that Christ has pitched his tent in heaven - he has acted out a religious myth in the world of myth.


I think the evidence is clear and obvious - many ancients believed in higher planes (ther world of myth). Various books discuss higher beings acting out myths in these worlds.


Iasion

GakuseiDon

Iasion, the distinction that you are missing is that Earl is (or rather was -- I'm not sure where he is placing it now) placing stories where the gods acted in the sublunar realm, "in the sphere of the flesh". For Earl, the people of that time believed that stories actually happened, e.g. Christ really was crucified and Attis really was castrated, but that these events happened in a fleshy sublunar realm, which was the realm of corruption and impermenance. For Christ to really die, he had to have been in the sublunar realm.

Now, there is no doubt that pagans placed actions of higher beings on a higher plane. There is no doubt that they believed that the soul separated from the body and mingled with the daemons in the air before going on its way -- I've given examples from Plutarch where he talks about "heroes" becoming "daemons" becoming "gods".

But what are the parallels in the links below to Paul's usage of "born of a woman, born under the law", "in the flesh", "seed of David" etc? I think you'll agree that Paul doesn't appear to be using visions in a similar way. If you want to claim that Paul is doing so but in a unique way, then I'm not sure that this could be proved or disproved.

I think that you have defined "world of myth" to be anything "mythical", which isn't how Earl defined it, at least originally. The links below seem to deal with the fate of the soul after death, which doesn't seem related to how "the average pagan" believed that Attis was castrated or Mithras killed a bull in a "world of myth". It is evidence for a belief in a multi-tiered universe, but as I've said, that isn't in doubt.

I think AoI is already good evidence for that already. No disagreement there.

They are their actions after a person dies, yes. But how is this different from Christians claiming that when a person dies, he is thrown into a lake of fire? Wouldn't that just be as strong evidence -- and from a Christian source, as well?

You can see here how you are starting to use "world of myth" for anything "mythical". Earl's claim was about what was happening in the "realm of flesh". What is the interaction in the sublunar realm?

Again, is that "world of myth" in the sublunar realm? Besides, it is clearly allegorical:

Then the white cow, which was born, brought forth a black wild sow and a white sheep.
19That wild sow also brought forth many swine.
20And that sheep brought forth twelve sheep.
21When those twelve sheep grew up, they delivered one of them to the asses.
22Again those asses delivered that sheep to the wolves,
23And he grew up in the midst of them.
24Then the Lord brought the eleven other sheep, that they might dwell and feed with him in the midst of the wolves.
25They multiplied, and there was abundance of pasture for them.
26But the wolves began to frighten and oppress them, while they destroyed their young ones.
27And they left their young in torrents of deep water.
28Now the sheep began to cry out on account of their young, and fled for refuge to their Lord. One however, which was saved, escaped, and went away to the wild asses.
29I beheld the sheep moaning, crying, and petitioning their Lord.
30With all their might, until the Lord of the sheep descended at their voice from his lofty habitation; went to them; and inspected them.
31He called to that sheep which had secretly stolen away from the wolves, and told him to make the wolves understand that they were not to touch the sheep.
32Then that sheep went to the wolves with the word of the Lord, when another met him, and proceeded with him.

Are you saying that these events were believed to have actually occured in a "world of myth"? Or were they regarded as allegorical, and not something that happened, in a world of myth or otherwise?

What is the connection to the sublunar realm?

And what is the connection to the sublunar realm?

And what is the connection to the sublunar realm?

I agree. There is no doubt that they believed in a multi-tiered universe. There is no doubt that they believed that the souls of the dead floated free from the body, some facing punishment and some ascending to become gods. If you want to define that as a "world of myth", then that's okay -- as long as it is defined clearly. But, is that where they placed Attis getting castrated, and where Mithras killed a bull? Is that where Osiris was dismembered? And ultimately, do they match what we see in Paul?

gurugeorge

(Hi GDon!) Erm, well where else would those things have happened, if they are considered to have "happened" at all in any sense whatsoever?

The "world of myth" includes everything that is corruptible (sublunar), but that isn't restricted to "boringly materialistic historically verifiable" world - there's the boringly materialistic historically verifiable aspect to the sublunar world, but there's also a "magical" aspect, with "magical" things happening (like visitations, visions, dematerialisations and rematerialisations, gods possessing people, etc., etc.).

I've said this before on this board, but I think it bears hammering home:you have to reckon with the kinds of phenomena like lucid dreaming, "astral travel", etc., in which people can have visions that are something like waking hallucinations, but coherent in a story-like way, or with coherent symbolism and seem very, very real. (If you haven't had hallucinations or lucid dreams or these kinds of visions, you can't really grasp how real they seem.) The "World" revealed in these visions is also "sublunar", and to someone who's prone to these kinds of visions, or able to induce them easily, the things that happen in it may seem to be part of this world.

Another way of saying this: what one counts as "plausible" in this context (in lieu of less ambiguous texts) will depend on how aware you are of the ease with which people can have these sorts of visions. New religions are being born all the time on the basis of meetings, visitations, entities, etc., from these kinds of experiences - even now (e.g. New Age, UFO cults, etc., etc.)

You don't need to have these kinds of visions, or be able to have them yourself, to understand that this kind of experience is an extremely plausible basis for the context of Christianity, especially the early Christianity of Paul (in which the spirit speaks through the brothers of the lord, etc.)