Sheshbazzar

Well that is a little progress, at least a bit better than bare assertions embedded within huge walls of dense prose.

Although, with a total lack of any surviving Christian manuscripts dateable earlier than 150 CE, and no contemporary non-apologetic evidences at all, I see no reason to place the probabilities anywhere near so high.
I'd put the probabilities somewhere more on the order of .0000001% that any first century 'John Mark' was the author, against a 99.9999999% probability that the texts of the Gospels were first assembled in the late second century CE. by writers unknown.

Adam

How about a footnote for that probability level? Sounds like a Fundie assertion to me.

Sheshbazzar

Do you wish to actually discuss the likelihood of the various probabilities?
Did you footnote the probability level that you tendered first?
It sounded like a Fundamentalist Christian statistic pulled out of a proverbial asshole.

Show me the basis of your probability statistic, and I'll show you mine.

Adam

You're equating my 50-50 with your one-in-a-billion? Guess who has the greater burden of proof! (Yes, Shesh, zeroes do mean something, maybe it's time you learned. Count 'em, six zeroes followed by a one gives one in ten million per cent, meaning a one-in-a-billion probability.) Not to mention that you're trying to prove a negative. Good luck!

Sheshbazzar

You came up with your bogus probability statistic first. The challenge is you get to support it first.
I notice that you did not even attempt to show me the basis of your estimated probability

I am careful, I even counted the zeros twice before I posted. I am very confident that you cannot back up your 50-50 claim.

Doug Shaver

All statements, if disputed, have equal burdens of proof. Precision has nothing to do with it. You made your statement first, though, so you go first.

Sheshbazzar

A bit of a side bet and a diversion this is.

Adam would like that because it gives him an opportunity to escape from having to address the content of post #614.

Adam

Already covered, Shesh,
In my #616 and 619.
I'm not obligated to cater endlessly to your lack of reading comprehension.

Sheshbazzar

I leave it to our readers to decide if your posts actually did so.

Adam

[Loose “threads” still remain from this main thread of mine, and one neatly picks up from my OP and #18 here. These “loose ends” revolve around my posts in the 500’s (526 to 561) in this thread in which I started arguing that the earliest writings about Jesus contained little if any of the supernatural, and that therefore everyone here at FRDB had to give them a hearing. I also presented my epistemological stance in
Truth Methodology Post #2
Based on this version of the Passion Narrative.
Naturally, this does not prove in itself that my three such sources give us historical facts that in turn give us HJ, but they do disprove the harder definition of MJ that states we know that there are no eyewitness records about Jesus. We have the records that may be from eyewitnesses, so that definition cannot be maintained unless these are dealt with and shown to be fiction or otherwise phony.
I named John Mark as the first eyewitness author of text around which the gospels developed. This Passion Narrative is found in all four gospels, but my view is that the source underlying the Gospel of John is the most original. Like the other two earliest written, it is free of supernaturalism, at least in the basically objectively identifiable verses as presented by me as Early Aramaic Gospels.

For the following text (and later perhaps for the Johannine Discourses and for Q1) I present here now this Synoptic overlap from John, excluding little more than the Feeding of the Five Thousand that is set much earlier in time than the Passion Narrative of John 18 and 19. I do include, however, the anointing of Jesus from the earlier part of that week.

For some scholarly justification for including this (one) Synoptic element outside the Passion Narrative, I have re-examined some of Teeple’s criteria for source strata. He identifies the partitive genitive as used only five times and only by his Source and by the Redactor. He acknowledges that their style is similar and can be differentiated primarily by the Editor layer in between them. Teeple lists John 18:22 as from his Source, and this is in the Synoptic overlap (less than half of his total S). His text (but not his Appendix) shows 12:4 as another Synoptic overlap with this style. John 12:11 is also part of this story of the anointing by Mary (though Teeple assigns this to the Redactor, but there is no intervening E layer to prove it is R and not S). The same facts apply to 19:20 about the sign in the three languages. Only the occurrence in 4:39 is definitely outside the limits of an S Source that might by Synoptic (both because John 4 is S more of the Signs Source nature and because Teeple assigns it conclusively to R (as he does) or E and not to S at all.

Less strong is my case about “about” the Greek word “hos” as being used only in the S Source (Signs Source portions) outside Synoptic overlaps. It is employed at John 1:39, 4:6; 6:10, and 6:19, all clearly Signs Source sections, but the latter two occur in the Feeding of the Five Thousand Synoptic overlap. It occurs at John 19:14 and 19:39, right in the Passion Narrative—but either disagreeing with the Synoptics (“about the sixth hour”) or not present (Nicodemus). Nothing here proves this word was ever used in the original Greek of the Passion Narrative, so its absence in John 12 is no argument against me attaching verses from there as preliminary to the Passion Narrative coming from the same writer.
Note also that I include no Resurrection accounts, as scholars have not agreed that they were part of the Passion Narrative. All four gospels agree about the empty tomb, but details differ. As for Teeple, he waffled by not listing any of this as S, admitting he never could decide beyond sources p1 and p2.]

[Copied from]
Early Aramaic Gospels Post #49 [I have presented John through John 17 above (mostly Teeple’s G and E) as all from one eyewitness (Nicodemus) and below(mostly Teeple’s S and G) give John Mark as the author of much of the remaining chapters. However, there is some overlap which is simplest to insert here as a short excursus, the preliminaries to the Passion Narrative by John Mark:]


John 11:54 S Then Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but he went away from there to the region near the wilderness.
John 12:1 S Then Jesus six days before the Passover came into Bethany…. 2 Then [we] made a supper for him there….3 Then Mary, having taken a litra of pure, costly nard ointment, anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the aroma of the ointment. 4 And says one of his disciples….5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?”….7 Then Jesus said, “Permit her, in order that she may keep it for the day of my burial. 8 For the poor you always have with you, but me you do not always have.” 9 Then a large crowd of the Jews…were going and were believing on Jesus.
12 On the morrow a great crowd…having heard that Jesus is coming into Jerusalem, 13 took branches of palms and went out to meet him, and cried out, “Hosanna. Blessed be the one coming in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel.” 14 And Jesus, having found a little donkey, sat upon it.
John 13:1 R And before the feast of the Passover, Jesus, seeing that his hour had come that he should pass from this world says 18 {But look, here with me on the table is the hand of the man who is betraying me.} (Substituting from Luke 22:21)} 37 E Peter says to him…I will lay down my life for you.” 38 Jesus answers, ”Will you lay down your life for me? ...the cock will not crow until you deny me thrice.”!
[John 18 and 19 as from John Mark, continuing from the above short excursus]

John 18:
S 1 …He went …where there was a garden, into which he himself entered and his disciples. ….3 Then Judas taking a cohort and servants from the chief priests and Pharisees, comes there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. 4… He says to them,” Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus the Nazoraean.” He says to them, “I am (he).” …6 Then when he said to them, “I am,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 10… (One) having a sword, drew it and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear….12 Then the cohort and the tribune…seized Jesus and bound him. 13 And they led (him) to… Caiaphas, who was the high priest of that year.
G 15 And following Jesus was another disciple E and that disciple was known to the high priest he entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest, 16 but Peter stood outside at the door. Then went out the other disciple, E the one known by the high priest, G and he talked to the doorkeeper, and she led in Peter. “Are you not also of the disciples of this man?” That one says, “I am not.” 18 And the slaves and the servants had stood, having made a charcoal fire because it was cold, and were warming (themselves). And Peter was also with them standing and warming (himself). S 19 Then the high priest asked Jesus about his disciples and about his teaching…. 22 And when he said these things, one of the servants standing by gave a slap to Jesus, saying, “Thus do you answer the high priest?”….

25…Then they said to him, “Are you not also of his disciples?” That one denied and said, “I am not.” 26 Says one of the slaves of the high priest,… G “Did I not see you in the garden with him?” 27 Then again Peter denied, and immediately a cock crowed. 28 Then they lead Jesus from Caiaphas into the praetorium. And it was early. And they themselves did not enter into the praetorium, in order that they might not be defied but might eat the Passover. 29 Then Pilate went outside to them and says, “What accusation do you bear against this man?

G 31 Then Pilate said to them, “You take him and according to your law judge (him).” The Jews said to him, “It is not lawful for us to kill anyone.”….33 Then Pilate entered again into the praetorium and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this from yourself, or did others tell you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your nation and the chief priests delivered to me. What did you do?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom was from this world, my servants would fight in order that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here.” 37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say (rightly) that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, in order that I may testify to the truth. Everyone who is from the truth hears my voice.” 38 Pilate says to him, “What is truth?”

John 19:
S 1 Then Pilate took Jesus and scourged (him) 2 and the soldiers having woven a crown of thorns, places it on (his) head, and put on him a purple robe. 3 And they were coming to him and were saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” and they gave to him blows. 4 Pilate says to them, “You take him and crucify (him), for I do not find guilt in him.” 5 Then Jesus came outside, wearing the thorny crown and the purple robe….
G 9 And he entered the praetorium…and says to Jesus, “Whence are you?” But Jesus gave no answer to him. 10 Pilate says to him, “
You are not speaking to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” 11 Answered him Jesus, “You would not have any authority over me unless it had been given to you from above. “….

S 12 Upon this Pilate was seeking to release him. But the Jews cried out saying, “If you release this one, you are not a friend of Caesar. Everyone making himself a king opposes Caesar.” 13 Then Pilate, having heard these words, led Jesus outside and sat on the judgment seat in the place called “Stone Pavement”….14…The hour was about the sixth. And he says to the Jews, “Behold your king! 15 Then those cried out, “Take (him) away! Crucify him! Pilate says to them, “Shall I crucify your king?” The chief priests answered, “We do not have a king except Caesar.” 16 Then he delivered him to them in order that he might be crucified. 17 Then they took Jesus and bearing his own cross, he went out into the place called “Skull”,…18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, one on each side and Jesus in the middle. 19 And Pilate wrote also a title and put (it) on the cross. And it was having been written, “Jesus the Nazoraean, the king of the Jews.”….

21 Then the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, “Write not ‘the king of the Jews’, but that that one said, “I am the king of the Jews.” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.” 23Then the soldiers, when they crucified Jesus, took his garments and made four parts, a part of each soldier, and (they took his) tunic. But the tunic was seamless, woven from the top through the whole (tunic). 24 Then they said to each other, “Let us not split it, but choose about it by lot whose it shall be.” ….25…And stood beside the cross of Jesus his mother, and the sister of his mother, Mary the (wife) of Clopas and Mary the Magdalene….
28 After this Jesus, knowing that already all things had been completed,…says, “I thirst.” 29 A vessel full of vinegar was sitting there; then having put on hyssop a sponge full of vinegar, they held (it) to his mouth. 30 Then when he was receiving he vinegar, he said, “It is completed”; and having bowed his head, he gave up (his) spirit….

38..Joseph from Arimathea…asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus.... 40 Then they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with spices, even as it is the custom with Jews to bury. 41 And in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb…42 Then there...because the tomb was near, they laid Jesus.