Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sarpedon · 07-18-2012, 11:50 AM

Then why does he repeat the same numbers everyone else is using?

semiopen · 07-18-2012, 11:51 AM

Sorry that I have missed this interesting debate.

FWIW, I think this study by Finkelstein is important even though it covers only through the Maccabees.

THE TERRITORIAL EXTENT AND DEMOGRAPHY OF YEHUD/JUDEA IN THE PERSIAN AND EARLY HELLENISTIC PERIODS

From the Conclusion -

Quote:

Judea of the early Hellenistic period, including the early days of the Hasmoneans, was still limited in territory, though somewhat larger than Persian-period Yehud. It extended from Beth-zur in the south to the area of Mizpah in the north, and probably included some territory in the upper, eastern Shephelah. Its population grew dramatically – it is estimated to have numbered ca. 40,000 people. This estimate validates the figures given to the forces of Judas Maccabeus in 1 Maccabees, but is significantly smaller than past estimates for both the population of Judea and the over-all force of the Hasmoneans in the 160s BC.

All this changed in the 140s, with the sudden expansion of Judea to the north, east, west and northwest. Its population almost doubled in a few years, reached a number close to that of Judah in the 7th century,and gave it the strength needed for further conquests and economicgrowth in late-Hasmonean days.

Here is a Catholic take on Jerusalem's population at the time of Yoshke.

Jerusalem at the Time of Jesus

Quote:

The supply of water from all sources in the first century would have supported a maximum population of around 70,000, assuming a consumption of 5 gallons per person per day.

My guess is that even this number is generous.

outhouse · 07-18-2012, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Then why does he repeat the same numbers everyone else is using?

they are repeating his lol

I dont agree with everything Sanders states, but so far no one has made a reasonable case against the numbers im following

im almost done with carriers take on sanders, hoping to find clues

outhouse · 07-18-2012, 11:58 AM

here it is

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...istorical.html

One scholar who has doubted the authenticity of this temple incident is Paula Fredriksen, who writes in From Jesus to Christ that she learnt quite a bit about the temple from Sanders' book Judaism: Practice and Belief (1992), including the temple's measurements, which she describes as follows: "The total circumference of the outermost wall ran to almost 9/10ths of a mile; twelve soccer fields, including stands, could be fit in; when necessary (as during the pilgrimage festivals, especially Passover) it could accommodate as many as 400,000 worshipers."[73]

When Fredriksen visited the Temple Mount, she was aghast at how huge it was, and its size "shrank" Jesus' alleged action, prompting her to ask herself:

If Jesus had made such a gesture, how many would have seen it? Those in his retinue and those standing immediately around him. But how many, in the congestion and confusion of that holiday crowd, could have seen what was happening even, say, twenty feet away? Fifty feet? The effect of Jesus' gesture at eye-level would have been muffled, swallowed up by the sheer press of pilgrims. How worried, then, need the priests have been?[74]

outhouse · 07-18-2012, 12:07 PM

So now we have another scholar stating the temple alone could hold 400,000 without overflow.

and we have other records stating that on one passover, it was so full the temple was overflowing from roughly the same time period [already posted in this thread]

Sarpedon · 07-18-2012, 12:24 PM

and we don't need scholars to know that people exaggerate.

Horatio Parker · 07-18-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Quote:

Most of the Jewish population lived outside of Palestine. 1st century Alexandria is said to contain 1 million Jew

Irrelevant. Nobody disputes that jews lived all over the roman empire. What I am disputing is the claim that the population of Palestine was over 1 million.

I was responding to this:

Quote:

Palestine was not considered to be a terribly important province in the Roman Empire, and the idea that it would contain 15% of the total population is simply absurd.

Duke Leto · 07-18-2012, 01:21 PM

Alright I went ahead and emailed Carrier a link to the thread. His site says it takes time for him to respond to emails, so we'll see what happens.

Sarpedon · 07-18-2012, 01:22 PM

Try responding with something that isn't absurd.

I repeat, if you think there were a million jews in alexandria, what do you think the total population of alexandria was?

As I said, I don't disagree that there were large populations of jews elsewhere. What I do disagree is that they were so numerous. I ask you, if there were such huge numbers of jews around the empire, why did they not rise up when the temple was destroyed? A million jews in alexandria could have made a substantial uprising.

This is another reason we know these population figures are so inflated. If there were 2.5 million jews in Palestine, how did the romans suppress their revolt with 70,000 men? And what were the other 5.5 million jews throughout the empire doing during this time?

The simplest answer is that the population figures are exaggerated.

Iskander · 07-18-2012, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

So now we have another scholar stating the temple alone could hold 400,000 without overflow.

and we have other records stating that on one passover, it was so full the temple was overflowing from roughly the same time period [already posted in this thread]

Galileo failed to convince the pope. Do you think you can do better than Galileo?

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07-18-2012, 11:50 AM	#131
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Then why does he repeat the same numbers everyone else is using?

07-18-2012, 11:58 AM	#134
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	here it is http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...istorical.html One scholar who has doubted the authenticity of this temple incident is Paula Fredriksen, who writes in From Jesus to Christ that she learnt quite a bit about the temple from Sanders' book Judaism: Practice and Belief (1992), including the temple's measurements, which she describes as follows: "The total circumference of the outermost wall ran to almost 9/10ths of a mile; twelve soccer fields, including stands, could be fit in; when necessary (as during the pilgrimage festivals, especially Passover) it could accommodate as many as 400,000 worshipers."[73] When Fredriksen visited the Temple Mount, she was aghast at how huge it was, and its size "shrank" Jesus' alleged action, prompting her to ask herself: If Jesus had made such a gesture, how many would have seen it? Those in his retinue and those standing immediately around him. But how many, in the congestion and confusion of that holiday crowd, could have seen what was happening even, say, twenty feet away? Fifty feet? The effect of Jesus' gesture at eye-level would have been muffled, swallowed up by the sheer press of pilgrims. How worried, then, need the priests have been?[74]

07-18-2012, 12:07 PM	#135
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	So now we have another scholar stating the temple alone could hold 400,000 without overflow. and we have other records stating that on one passover, it was so full the temple was overflowing from roughly the same time period [already posted in this thread]

07-18-2012, 12:24 PM	#136
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	and we don't need scholars to know that people exaggerate.

07-18-2012, 01:21 PM	#138
Duke Leto Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,387	Alright I went ahead and emailed Carrier a link to the thread. His site says it takes time for him to respond to emails, so we'll see what happens.

07-18-2012, 01:22 PM	#139
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Try responding with something that isn't absurd. I repeat, if you think there were a million jews in alexandria, what do you think the total population of alexandria was? As I said, I don't disagree that there were large populations of jews elsewhere. What I do disagree is that they were so numerous. I ask you, if there were such huge numbers of jews around the empire, why did they not rise up when the temple was destroyed? A million jews in alexandria could have made a substantial uprising. This is another reason we know these population figures are so inflated. If there were 2.5 million jews in Palestine, how did the romans suppress their revolt with 70,000 men? And what were the other 5.5 million jews throughout the empire doing during this time? The simplest answer is that the population figures are exaggerated.

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