Freethought & Rationalism Archive

faust · 10-30-2005, 08:54 PM

I'm leaning towards quack, but i don't see anything on quackwatch.com and it's a cellular anti-ageing thing (sets off alarms for me), but it's also supported by Bruce Ames.

http://www.juvenon.com/

See the ad in Discovery mag? Seems like this has to be more alternative medicine "nutriceuticals" kind of garbage, but i'm looking for some info from you guys. A normally very skeptical friend of mine started taking this stuff and gave me the standard useless anecdotal evidence, so i'm kind of curious.

Yea or nay? Mitochondria, do they need help? does this stuff seem likely to make a noticable difference?

Occams_Razor · 10-30-2005, 09:28 PM

The claim is that Juvenon has proven efficacy in mice. But:

Quote:

"The trouble is nobody knows if it really works on humans. Ames says he is selling the stuff to raise the money that only now will allow him to begin the double-blind clinical human trials that are the scientific gold standard."

http://www.garreau.com/main.cfm?action=chapters&id=12

Quote:

Originally Posted by faust

Yea or nay?

That depends on whether you're a mouse it seems.

Hubble head · 10-31-2005, 07:47 AM

I think that one liner you just posted "selling it to raise money for a real study" is the work of a clever con man.

Alter · 10-31-2005, 08:00 AM

I've read about it, the science is there and it won't hurt you (nothing in it has serious side effects). It should make a noticeable difference if you take it for 20 years, but since you'll have no control, there's no way to truly *notice*, except to see that your friends are slwoer than you.

If you've got the dough and the wherewithal, go for it.

faust · 10-31-2005, 09:20 AM

Well, i'm 27, so I suppose i can wait for the "real studies" to come out. The bit about selling it to pay for human trials is hilarious.. Imagine if other drugs went through such a process.

"Here, buy this drug so we can afford to see if it works." Yeah.. on second thought, i think i'll hold on to my $30 for a little while longer.
Thanks guys.

paradigm9 · 10-31-2005, 09:39 AM

considering that stabilization of mitochondria is also capable of promoting carcinogenesis i would be careful. not all cell death is bad and it only takes one cell transformation to kill you, quite painfully.

BioBeing · 10-31-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hubble head

I think that one liner you just posted "selling it to raise money for a real study" is the work of a clever con man.

I think that is the crux.

The site *looked* fairly scientific, but actually had a paucity of links to peer reviewed publications (I think I saw one, to a "trade" sports medicine journal. Why would a sports medicine journal be a primary publication for work on aging in mitochondria?).

They *seem* to be doing the right thing (clinical trials), but why not do them before selling their stuff? For the right product (with satisfactory preclinical data), venture capital firms will pour money into the trials. One simply should not sell stuff so you can pay to see if works. Suggests to me either the preclinical is dodgy, or these people are taking a sneaky short-cut.

If they can sell their stuff without doing the (expensive) trials, why bother doing the trials at all? Personally, I'd be surprised to see publications from any such trials actually make the light of day.

paradigm9 · 10-31-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote:

The bit about selling it to pay for human trials is hilarious

even more hilarious when you consider that taking a drug, or treatment, all the way through FDA trials costs ~$300 million. thats why there really arent "small" pharma companies.

faust · 10-31-2005, 10:30 AM

Plenty of money to be had by "small" pharma companies in the form of VC and grants. Remember you don't have to actually take a drug all the way through to be a sucessful company or research institution.

All you need to do is develop a promising treatment and get grant money for it or VC for it and it can be sold to a larger company. Basic research happens all the time in companies too small to develop a drug all the way through, it's just specialization of product chain development.

Re: selling the stuff, why do the trials? I have no idea Biobeing, but I work at a basic research facility and we're doing clinical trials paid for by metabolife...
Obviously they don't need positive clinical trials to be selling tons of that stuff, but here they are paying for such trials anyway. It's odd.

ecco · 10-31-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

See the ad in Discovery mag?

Magazines have to run ads for which they are paid. A lot of BS stuff is advertised in Discovery so that people can say it was in Discovery magazine. BS is BS is BS. Just because eh is a Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. Really doesn’t mean much. BeHe is also a Professor of Biology and we all know he has his own brand of BS that he is selling.

10-30-2005, 08:54 PM	#1
faust Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: baton rouge, la Posts: 539	Juvenon quack or not quack? I'm leaning towards quack, but i don't see anything on quackwatch.com and it's a cellular anti-ageing thing (sets off alarms for me), but it's also supported by Bruce Ames. http://www.juvenon.com/ See the ad in Discovery mag? Seems like this has to be more alternative medicine "nutriceuticals" kind of garbage, but i'm looking for some info from you guys. A normally very skeptical friend of mine started taking this stuff and gave me the standard useless anecdotal evidence, so i'm kind of curious. Yea or nay? Mitochondria, do they need help? does this stuff seem likely to make a noticable difference?

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10-31-2005, 07:47 AM	#3
Hubble head Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Corn rows Posts: 4,570	I think that one liner you just posted "selling it to raise money for a real study" is the work of a clever con man.

10-31-2005, 08:00 AM	#4
Alter Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Midwest Posts: 2,210	I've read about it, the science is there and it won't hurt you (nothing in it has serious side effects). It should make a noticeable difference if you take it for 20 years, but since you'll have no control, there's no way to truly notice, except to see that your friends are slwoer than you. If you've got the dough and the wherewithal, go for it.

10-31-2005, 09:20 AM	#5
faust Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: baton rouge, la Posts: 539	Well, i'm 27, so I suppose i can wait for the "real studies" to come out. The bit about selling it to pay for human trials is hilarious.. Imagine if other drugs went through such a process. "Here, buy this drug so we can afford to see if it works." Yeah.. on second thought, i think i'll hold on to my $30 for a little while longer. Thanks guys.

10-31-2005, 09:39 AM	#6
paradigm9 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: washington dc Posts: 1,313	considering that stabilization of mitochondria is also capable of promoting carcinogenesis i would be careful. not all cell death is bad and it only takes one cell transformation to kill you, quite painfully.

10-31-2005, 10:30 AM	#9
faust Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: baton rouge, la Posts: 539	Plenty of money to be had by "small" pharma companies in the form of VC and grants. Remember you don't have to actually take a drug all the way through to be a sucessful company or research institution. All you need to do is develop a promising treatment and get grant money for it or VC for it and it can be sold to a larger company. Basic research happens all the time in companies too small to develop a drug all the way through, it's just specialization of product chain development. Re: selling the stuff, why do the trials? I have no idea Biobeing, but I work at a basic research facility and we're doing clinical trials paid for by metabolife... Obviously they don't need positive clinical trials to be selling tons of that stuff, but here they are paying for such trials anyway. It's odd.

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