Originally Posted by lmbarre

My arguments regarding the existence and interpretation of pMark exceeds this forum's space limitations. Therefore, I have provided the following link so that the whole piece may be viewed.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblic...hip/message/36

What makes the essay very long is that I quote the entire book of Mark. However, it is only meant to be scanned to view with two Markan themes occur and therefore which pericopae are to be assigned to Mark's expansion of pMark.

Originally Posted by lmbarre

My arguments regarding the existence and interpretation of pMark exceeds this forum's space limitations. Therefore, I have provided the following link so that the whole piece may be viewed.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblic...hip/message/36

What makes the essay very long is that I quote the entire book of Mark. However, it is only meant to be scanned to view with two Markan themes occur and therefore which pericopae are to be assigned to Mark's expansion of pMark.

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your interpretaion of gMark is WHOLLY in error.

You appear ignorant of the fact that many authors used gMark and declared Publicly that Jesus was BORN of a Ghost.

The author of gMatthew used virtually 100% of gMark and REALIZED and INTERPRETED gMark's Jesus as the Son of a Ghost.

The author of gLuke REALIZED the very same thing after using gMark and gMatthew--There is ONLY one way to INTERPRET gMark--he was FATHERED by a Ghost--

Even the author of the Long gMark who used 100% of the short gMark publicly declared that Jesus came from the dead and commissioned the disciples to PREACH the Gospel.

This is EXTREMELY Significant.

The commission to preach the Gospel by Jesus was SPECIFICALLY commanded by a Resurrected Jesus.

BEFORE the supposed Jesus was dead he NEVER commanded anyone to tell the Jews or anyone else that he was the Messiah and the Son of the Blessed.

Remarkably, the entire story of Jesus in gMark is filled with fiction. Virtually everything about Jesus must be fiction or invented in the short gMark--from baptism to the resurrection.

The author of the Long gMark added more fiction with the post resurrection visit and ascension.

The author of gMatthew added even more fiction with the conception and birth of Jesus and expanded every story with more fictitious details.

The author of gLuke again corroborates and Refines the Fiction in the short gMark, the Long gMark and gMatthew with supposed "eyewitnesses".

Effectively, the earliest story of Jesus is WELL ATTESTED Fiction.

Originally Posted by lmbarre

My arguments regarding ....which pericopae are to be assigned to Mark's expansion of pMark.

Originally Posted by Adam

In addition to the overall concept being flawed,

How so? Certainly it is most obvious that the account of the Baptizer's death is an insertion. This one example is sufficient to show that more than one hand has produced the final form of the gospel.

Here is a complete list of seven alleged examples of redactional expansion of Mark upon pMark. Here one is called to make a decision of whether Mark is unified or composite.

Note that in each case, material unrelated to both preceding and following context is absent while the narrative flow continues across the alleged expansion. Also note that the expansion is a complete literary entity in itself. In other words, if exansions are present, this is what they would look like.

1) The insertion of the story of John the Baptizer's death:

7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits ; 8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff -no bread, no bag, no money in their belt - 9 but to wear sandals ; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." 10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. 11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.

14 And King Herod heard of it, for His name had become well known ; and people were saying, "John the Baptist has risen from the dead, and that is why these miraculous powers are at work in Him." 15 But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he kept saying, "John, whom I beheaded, has risen !" 17 For Herod himself had sent and had John arrested and bound in prison on account of Herodias, the wife of his brother Philip, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death and could not do so; 20 for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed ; but he used to enjoy listening to him. 21 A strategic day came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his lords and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee ; 22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests ; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you want and I will give it to you." 23 And he swore to her, "Whatever you ask of me, I will give it to you; up to half of my kingdom." 24 And she went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?" And she said, "The head of John the Baptist." 25 Immediately she came in a hurry to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 And although the king was very sorry, yet because of his oaths and because of his dinner guests, he was unwilling to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent an executioner and commanded him to bring back his head. And he went and had him beheaded in the prison, 28 and brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl ; and the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about this, they came and took away his body and laid it in a tomb.

30 The apostles gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught.
2) Jesus' family comes to get him because he seems unbalanced:

20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."

22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons." 23 And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan ? 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 "If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished ! 27 "But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. 28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter ; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "- 30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You." 33 Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers ?" 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers ! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."

3) Jesus' assertion about an unknown exorcist:

33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way ?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."

38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

4) Fasting

18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting ; and they came and said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast ?" 19 And Jesus said to them,
,
"While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

21 "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment ; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. 22 "No one puts new wine into old wineskins ; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."

5) Children

33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way ?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them,

37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.

42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

6) Anointing

1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away ; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to seize Him by stealth and kill Him; 2 for they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise there might be a riot of the people."


3 While He was in Bethany at the home of Simon the leper, and reclining at the table, there came a woman with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume of pure nard ; and she broke the vial and poured it over His head. 4 But some were indignantly remarking to one another, "Why has this perfume been wasted ? 5 "For this perfume might have been sold for over three hundred denarii, and the money given to the poor." And they were scolding her. 6 But Jesus said, "Let her alone ; why do you bother her? She has done a good deed to Me. 7 "For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me. 8 "She has done what she could ; she has anointed My body beforehand for the burial. 9 "Truly I say to you, wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her."

14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went off to the chief priests in order to betray Him to them. 11 They were glad when they heard this, and promised to give him money. And he began seeking how to betray Him at an opportune time.

7) Peter's Denials

14:53 They led Jesus away to the high priest ; and all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes gathered together.

544 Peter had followed Him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest ; and he was sitting with the officers and warming himself at the fire.

Jesus before His Accusers

55 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any. 56 For many were giving false testimony against Him, but their testimony was not consistent. 57 Some stood up and began to give false testimony against Him, saying, 58 "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.' " 59 Not even in this respect was their testimony consistent. 60 The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, "Do You not answer ? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62 And Jesus said, "I am ; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses ? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy ; how does it seem to you?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. 65 Some began to spit at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say to Him, "Prophesy !" And the officers received Him with slaps in the face.

66 As Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant-girls of the high priest came, 67 and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, "You also were with Jesus the Nazarene." 68 But he denied it, saying, "I neither know nor understand what you are talking about." And he went out onto the porch. and a rooster crowed.#2871 69 The servant-girl saw him, and began once more to say to the bystanders, "This is one of them!" 70 But again he denied it. And after a little while the bystanders were again saying to Peter, "Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean too." 71 But he began to curse and swear, "I do not know this man you are talking about!" 72 Immediately a rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had made the remark to him, "Before a rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." And he began to weep.

1 Early in the morning the chief priests with the elders and scribes and the whole Council, immediately held a consultation ; and binding Jesus, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pilate.　

there are technical glitches in your text. You talk about motifs in bold, but there is nothing in bold.

This link shows the bold and italic fonts, at least to me.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblic...hip/message/36

I guess you mean the CAPITALIZATIONS, but they are scattered through both your original and your expanded text, and seem not to relate to your two key words "immediately" and amazement, nor to contrasting themes in the original vs. the expansion.

No, the capitalizations are supplied by the NASB and mark references to the Old Testament.



Your second illustration of an insertion at Mark 3:22-30 is nevertheless NOT shown it italics in your complete text of gMark.

See above. I hope the italics show. They should.

Where "immediately" occurs inconveniently in the middle of your proposed original, you single out the single sentence as an expansion: 8:10.

One has to decide if immediately does indicate a Markan expansion. Mark uses the adverb no less than 42 out of 59 occurrences in the NT.

There is a displacement in your text from Mark 5:20 to 5:32 so it is placed before 5:1. "43" is inserted in error at 5:32.

I will check on this.

Do you have permission to post a complete text that is 90% of your posting?

I do not think I need it.

What translation is this that is so faithful in translating "Euthus" as "Immediately"? (Most don't).

The version quoted is the NASB because of its translation approach of formal correspondence word-for-word ass opposed to dynamic equivalence.

I compared "immediately" to my separation os strands and did not find correlation. Scholars have generally given up trying to find stylistic differences within gMark.

Originally Posted by outhouse

What training do you have to make this assumption?