Juliana

Is the Gospel the missal of the poor in spirit?

Juliana

In his latest falsehood posted here, kaas - yes, he's still at it - refers to Vorkosigan as a real expert on the matter. He writes:
"Als u overigens een helder, en vernietigend, commentaar wilt lezen door een echt ter zake kundige - iemand die anders dan Von der Dunk en Cliteur ook de moeite heeft genomen om het boek werkelijk te lezen - dan is dit een aanrader: http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com. (op veel PC’s helaas moeilijk te openen). "

Translation and emphasis mine:
By the way, if you want to read a clear and crushing comment by someone who is really knowledgeable on the matter - somebody who unlike von der Dunk and Cliteur has also taken the trouble to really read the book - then this is a must: http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com. (unfortunately it is difficult to open on many PCs)."

Cliteur and von der Dunk have both written reviews and Cliteur spoke about 'Jesus was Caesar' twice (afaik) on Dutch TV. They have read the book more than once whereas Vork, as he has repeatedly stated here has not.
I think this is a good opportunity for our aspiring scholar Vorkosigan to show that he has integrity. You can write English in the forum, practically every Dutchman understands it.
Did anybody have problems opening Vork's blogs, btw?

kaas

Hello there,
Sorrry, but I only heard yesterday that Juliana was advertising the book again. Jesus, you all did your best these last two weeks!! I don't think I'm going to read it all, but just some remarks:

-Yes, Juliana is one of the translators of the book. I've 100% solid proof of that. And from what I just read, I think he is also Aquitaine, but I need to read more carefully to be sure. Perhaps the moderators can compare the IP-addresses.

-Cliteur and Von der Dunk have not read the book. I know that for sure as well. (I had, f.i., a two week discussion by e-mail with Cliteur some two years ago in which he admitted he had not read it and in which he had absolutely nothing to say about the content of the book). They not even have read what is on Carotta's site. If they had, like Vork, they would have known, like Vork, Carotta is an idiot. Cliteur and Von der Dunk fell in the trap of their own desire to finish off Christianity. Neither of them will be prepared to repeat what they said two years ago. Von der Dunk already wrote a cheap excuse, saying that he never really said he believed Carotta, but only that he found his theory interestring, while Cliteur starts crying that there are more important things to be concerned about right now. (He has said some things about muslims there weren't too friendly and now he likes to see himself as a potential martyr like Theo van Gogh).

So far for the moment.

Amaleq13

I doubt they are the same person but sock puppets are not forbidden, just considered bad form.

kaas

Had time to read more tonight and I think you are right.

kaas

The fact is that Van Hooff and me seperately responded to the positive reviews given by Cliteur and von der Dunk. This is what I wrote to the journal of Leiden University:

Carotta belongs to the army of whole or partial imbeciles who have proven by the art of free association the most bizarre things. His book is a classic example of pseudo-science of the level of Von Daniken, to quote Van Hooff (in spite of Von der Dunks feeble defence).
Carotta belongs to the category of idiots who have demonstrated in the past that Ulysses came from Vlissingen, Circe from Zierikzee and that Delft was Delphi, that Noviomagus was Noyon instead of Nijmegen, that Nostradamus predicted Hitler (=Hister), that near-sighted people are short-sighted, that Van Gogh wanted to cut off his prick (lel=lul) and – to stay closer to the subject of the book – that Jesus was buried in France under the Mont Cardou (= Corps Dieu) (after being happily married with Mary Magdalene with whom he procreated the first Merovingians).
Carotta shows all the classic elements of a pseudo-scientist: he thinks analogies have a causal potency, he looks for analogies until he finds one, he makes use of gaps in the existing theories (very popular with creationists) and he makes selective and unbalanced use of his material: what fits is overexposed, what doesn’t fit is neglected.
Just for the record: I don’t give a damn whether Christ existed or not. It is Carotta’s methodology that stinks. If you don’t see that at first reading, you don’t know what you are talking about. The fact that Cliteur, in his blind hate towards Christians, is willing to set aside all basic laws of elementary logic is a shame. Such a man is not fit to be called professor. Prof. Diekstra was sacked from Leiden University for a minor case of plagiarism. I think the same sanction should apply to parotting a charlatan like Carotta.

Actually there is not much more to be said about Carotta - he is a nobody - and under normal circumstances it would have ended hear. But I had the bad idea to start a discussion on Carotta's own forum as well:Rubbish! I only used a different name once (my wife's) and only to get a certain answer (which I got). (Carotta and his advertising agent, however, use different names every other day). The problem was that Carotta didn't like any criticism. He kept on asking for a substantial critique, which, however, he immediately removed the moment I posted it. Since FC specifically had asked for it and since I had wasted half my weekend to please him by writing it, I reposted it over and over, telling that I would only stop if he would leave it on for 48 hours, after which I would never pester him again.See my last posting.Oh please, make my day.I never made a secret of it, contrary to you.Here Joseph is referring to a long hagiography by Tommie Hendriks, Carotta's first and most loyal devotee, translator of the book in Dutch and Joseph's counterpart on the afore mentioned Dutch forum (using names like Maria, Marcus Anthonius, Leo and some others, I forgot).

Casper

Forgive me for reviving an old thread, but the Divus Iulius connection seems to be floating around more and more. I came across this link on christianism.com that I assume is authentic, being part of the work of one Alex Del Mar (1836-1926). Not exactly a new idea, just revived (I assume).

Aquitaine

Hi Casper!

I have also run across references to that book (The Worship of Augustus Caesar) by Del Mar. I have even bought a copy, too.
The book is pretty strange and hard to follow. His main contention is Augustus Caesar adjusted chronologies so that events of his own life would coincide with ancient time cycles (eras?). He was reinforcing his claims to being divine; being the fulfillment of all ancient prophecies; being the one, the only... etc.
The related side issue that Del Mar seems to completely miss is that many of the Roman mythological themes surrounding Augustus and those surrounding his 'father' Julius Caesar as well, are obviously now percieved as being "Christian" themes.

Understanding Augustus and his political necessities is crucial to understanding how Carotta's theory works, and how very much it looks to be true.

Augustus had COMPLETE control over the empire, (eventually, after having a rough time of it defeating Sextus Pompey and Antony). But before he could achieve complete dominion, Antony had successfully established his own version of the cult of Divus Iulius (the deified Julius Caesar). One must understand that at this time the very foundation of the Roman claim to rightful sovereignty over the known world (the Mediterranean) was the perception that Julius Caesar's life had proven that he was the incarnation of supreme divinity.
Augustus had to nullify this eastern cult variation of (created by Antony and Cleopatra) Divus Iulius and Augustus also had to accumulate and adjust all 'evidence' in order to substantiate that HE (Augustus) was the rightful heir to Julius Caesar; He, Augustus, was indeed not only the adopted son of Julius Caesar but the actual sacred "son" of the god Divus Iulius.
....

There are Many historical aspects that tie in beautifully with Carotta's theory...

Casper

Interesting. I am on the fence kind of, but I have become very interested in Carotta's claim that everything just "stopped" for this cult. Very little makes its way through to the net, so I guess this is just another area I need to make bookshelf space for.

Thanks!

Juliana

So has anybody read 'Jesus was Caesar' by now in order to give an informed opinion?

Juliana