Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sho 'Nuff · 10-20-2008, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrunicycler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sho 'Nuff

The so-called correlates are weak, actually; brain activity does not resemble the first person experience of consciousness in the slightest.

Is this an opinion based only your first-hand experience, or can you direct me to something done in the lab on the subject?

The obvious. My perception of a computer screen doesn't resemble brain activity in my occiptal lobe at all. In fact, it's correlates are entirely transparent in the first person experience.

mrunicycler · 10-20-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sho 'Nuff

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrunicycler

Is this an opinion based only your first-hand experience, or can you direct me to something done in the lab on the subject?

The obvious. My perception of a computer screen doesn't resemble brain activity in my occiptal lobe at all. In fact, it's correlates are entirely transparent in the first person experience.

Right.

So, again, you don't have anything to back up what you're saying.

You can talk all day long. Bring some evidence to the table, and I'll start listening.

fromderinside · 10-20-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sho 'Nuff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betenoire

Self-awareness is not a device, it's a phenomenon. More of an epi-phenomenon, really. The device is one of the parts of the brain (I think the centromedian nucleus, but that level of detail is above my pay grade. Better to ask somebody who's poked a scalpel around inside a skull).

Better yet to ask someone capable of introspection, as you are resorting to an illusion of knowledge. Again.

Both comments are so funny. Consider the differences between a Chimp looking in a mirror and a cat looking in a mirror. The cat attacks the mirror and the Chimp sees banana on the image in the mirror then wipes it off his face.

Its also been used to show that species as different from man as Octopus show self awareness.

Sheesh.

There are hundreds, even thousands of studies demonstrating elements of self awareness and species that show it.

Get with the program.

delu · 10-21-2008, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromderinside

There are hundreds, even thousands of studies demonstrating elements of self awareness and species that show it.

And this self-awareness is not a human trait from birth; similar mirror tests with toddlers show that they will not wipe-off the spilt banana on their face until they are around 18 months old. Human brain development continues apace outside the womb and it seems we are not born with self-awareness (so it is not god-given then).

Sho 'Nuff · 10-21-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrunicycler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sho 'Nuff

The obvious. My perception of a computer screen doesn't resemble brain activity in my occiptal lobe at all. In fact, it's correlates are entirely transparent in the first person experience.

Right.

So, again, you don't have anything to back up what you're saying.

You can talk all day long. Bring some evidence to the table, and I'll start listening.

Nyet.

fromderinside · 10-22-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delu

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromderinside

There are hundreds, even thousands of studies demonstrating elements of self awareness and species that show it.

And this self-awareness is not a human trait from birth; similar mirror tests with toddlers show that they will not wipe-off the spilt banana on their face until they are around 18 months old. Human brain development continues apace outside the womb and it seems we are not born with self-awareness (so it is not god-given then).

So what you are saying is that because humans are incapable of having, or, producing babies until they are about 10-12 that procreation isn't god given.

Check.

The right to lifers are gonna go ballistic over that.

chichiflys · 10-22-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delu

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromderinside

There are hundreds, even thousands of studies demonstrating elements of self awareness and species that show it.

And this self-awareness is not a human trait from birth; similar mirror tests with toddlers show that they will not wipe-off the spilt banana on their face until they are around 18 months old. Human brain development continues apace outside the womb and it seems we are not born with self-awareness (so it is not god-given then).

I think they would just say that it's not god-given until they are old enough. You know, all part of God's master plan.... or some other non-falsifiable statement that keeps their faith-a-burnin'.

simongc · 10-26-2008, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glooper23

I struggle daily with imagining the universe having started from scratch. I can't seem to de evolve certain processes, which is where my question lies.

To evolutionists: life forms seem to be born with pre thought layouts. By that, I mean the organs end up growing to a point and then stop, the bones keep growing and then stop, etc. How did they evolutionarily occur? How did basic molecules build up into the ability to make a seed / egg than holds info about how long the body should grow?

As you know the universe was created from chaos ;

and so the only philosophical argument is who were the first professionals

The bureaucrat said that the bureaucrats must have been first as they are the only ones who could sort out the chaos
The newsman said journalists were first as they had to report on the chaos before it could be sorted
The politician said - who do think created the chaos ..

ThorsHammer · 10-27-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glooper23

Thanks for the responses. I know next to nothing about biology because it's my least favorite subject. Regardless, it isn't a requirement for me to understand the answer to my question.

Occam's Aftershave's response helped immensely. What I am confused about is how life could become so complex without a creator. I support evolution, but this basic concept is what I can not grasp.

Theophage,

Quote:

As opposed to what? Poofing in by God magic?

Surely it's not impossible. Extremely unlikely, but I'd be a fool is I 100% denied it.

By de-evolve, I meant I want to know how it'd be possible for complex systems like a heart or a gene to evolve from basic molecules.

Quote:

What in the world is an "evolutionist"? More nonsense-speak?

What term do evolution supporting people take on? There's creationists, and I assume there are evolutionists? I googled it and found it everywhere, so I assumed it was usable on this forum.

Thanks again.

Consider this: Every human being was once a single cell. No organs, no body parts. Just a cell. As you may know, this cell eventually becomes a human, with a heart and all requisite body parts. How does this come about? The answers to all of your questions are found in science. No god needed.

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