aa5874

Well, I have shown that your claim is UNSUBSTANTIATED. It is most obvious that once the Pauline writings are ISOLATED from the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles that there is NO way to determine the chronology of events in the Pauline letters.

1. The Pauline writers claimed Jesus was crucified. I challenge you to show me where and when that event took place by using Only the Pauline letters.

2. The Pauline writer claimed he Persecuted the Faith. I challenge you to show me when those persecutions took place by using Only the Pauline letters.

3. The Pauline writer claimed he Met the Apostles Peter and James in Jerusalem. I challenge you to show me when that event took place by using Only the Pauline letters.

Now, In 1 Cor. 15, the Pauline writer claimed Jesus DIED for OUR SINS, was buried and was raised on the THIRD day.

This story line is found in the Gospels. And most remarkable, the Pauline story line is NOT found in the earliest Canonised gMark but in gJohn considered the LAST composed Gospel of the Canon.

In Galatians 1, the Pauline writer claimed he was in Damascus and that he was Presecutor of the Faith which is found in Acts of the Apostles.

ONLY one person in the NT CANON was in a basket by a wall in Damascus. Only SAUL/PAUL, the Corinthians letter writer called Paul.

Acts 9:25 KJV2 Corinthians 11:33 KJV The Pauline letters and story line MUST be read in conjucntion with the Gospels and Acts to be understood.

The story line in the Gospels and Acts do NOT need the Pauline letters.

The DETAILS of the Jesus stories in the short-ending gMark, the long-ending gMark, and gMatthew OBVIOUSLY did NOT come from the Pauline letters.

The DETAILS of the Acts of the Apostles OBVIOUSLY did NOT come from the Pauline letters.

1. The Pauline writer claimed he KNEW written sources that stated Jesus DIED for OUR Sins, was buried and was Raised on the Third day.

2. The Pauline writer also claimed he was AWARE that the resurrected Jesus Visited the Disciples BEFORE him.

3. Paul claimed he Met Apostles Peter and James found in the Jesus stories.

4. Paul claimed he was Visited by Jesus like the disciples in the Jesus stories

That very STORY LINE is in the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

The Pauline writings are AFTER the Jesus STORY LINE was known and circulated.

Based on the DATED Texts, the Jesus story line is from around the mid 2ND century. Paul knew the 2nd century Jesus story line.

I no longer accept IMAGINATION and Speculation as evidence. If I continue to accept imagination and speculation NOTHING will be resolved.

We have DATED Texts--they MUST be used--imagination and speculation must be discarded.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stament_papyri

Duvduv

So the bottom line is that you hold like any believing Christian who says that the readers of the epistles didn't need to hear anything significant from Paul because they "knew" it all already, and the gospel stories were more than available.

But even if you hold the view of the typical Christian, there is no way for you to know for sure if some elements were not added to a text as an interpolation or a marginal didactic gloss by one or more particular scribes before the gospels were developed. Plus there is the possibility of letters being composites before they were presented as a set.

Whatever the similarities and your desire to have the reader refer back to gospels and Acts that you think were already out there, you cannot ignore so many of the explicit differences and discrepancies EVEN within the same letter by writers who you think knew of those other texts.

Just to refresh your memory, below is what I posted in the thread "Pauline Epistles on Resurrection of Christ":

Galatians 1:11 It is Jesus who revealed himself to Paul.
Galatians 1:15 It is God who revealed the Christ to Paul.

God is the Savior in 1 Timothy and Titus, whereas Jesus is the Savior in Ephesians, Philippians, 2 Timothy.

1 Timothy 2:
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

2 Timothy 1: This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus.

God is over all in Ephesians 4 but Jesus is over all in Romans 9.

The "churches" were of Christ in Romans 6 but of God in 1 Corinthians 11.

The kingdom belongs to Christ in Colossians 1 but belongs to God in Colossians 3.

The Judgement Seat belongs to God in Romans 14 but to Christ in 2 Corinthians 5.

Paul is a servant of God (and apostle of Jesus) in Titus 1 but a servant of Christ in Galatians 1.

aa5874

I have no interest in Rhetoric and baseless comments.

Please, I am doing a SERIOUS investigation.

Again, the the chronological order of events in Pauline writings cannot be understood WITHOUT the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

These are logical and factual statements.

Examine any Pauline letter on its own and you will NOT be able to deduce WHEN any event happened.

I ask you again, based on Galatians when did the Galatians writer go to Damascus??? When did God call the Galatians writer to preach the Gospel??? When did Paul go to Jerusalem??? When did the writer see the Apostles Peter and James???

Now read the WHOLE CANONISED BIBLE from front to back--From Genesis to Revelation!!!!
When were the letters written to Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, Philippians and Colossians???

In Acts the author WROTE about the Companion, Travels, Churches and Preaching of Paul but NOTHING of Paul writing letters.

It is Most Obvious, Most Logical, Most Reasonable to deduce that an author who wrote about the Companion, Travels, Churches, and Preaching of Paul would have mentioned that Paul wrote MANY letters.

The author of ACTS mentioned NO letters of Paul.

The author of Acts DEDICATED about FIFTEEN consecutive chapters in Acts to Paul and wrote about virtually everything EXCEPT the Pauline letters.

The Pauline letters were COMPOSED AFTER Acts of the Apostles.

Duvduv

AA. you are remarkably and gloriously persistent while being remarkably and gloriously evasive when challenged. Maybe you should rethink some of your approaches in order to interact more meaningfully with others on this Board. It would be more valuable that way.

Isn't it just as likely that both the authors of Galatians and Acts knew of a similarly story of a guy who went to Damascus? What's the big deal? Each one recorded the story as he thought he knew it, which is why they contradict each other.

While you are thinking about these matters, think over about those citations with the contradictions in the epistles about some basic concepts. Outside the box, AA, outside the box!

aa5874

It is you who is all over the place. You shift your positions from thread to thread using rhetoric, speculation and imagination as evidence. If it is no big deal for you why are you arguing with me???

My position is FIRM BASED on the written statements found in the Canonised Acts of the Apostles, the Gospels and the Pauline letters.

You cannot contradict my position with ACTUAL evidence only with Rhetoric, Speculation and imagination. What ifs, why nots are NOT evidence of anything.

1. The chronology of events about Paul in Pauline letters CANNOT be resolved without the Canonised Gospels and Acts.

2. The author of Acts did NOT write or claim Paul wrote any letters to any churches but claimed that Paul and his group DELIVERED letters for the Jerusalem church after having ALLOTED 15 consecutive chapters to Paul.

My position is that Acts of the Apostles and the Gospels were Composed before the Pauline letters based on the ACTUAL contents of those very books.

Duvduv

AA. I did not join this group simply to spout off my unchanging views about this matter. I joined to debate, discuss, think and learn, so just take it easy!

I have told you before and will tell you again that all you or I or anyone else is able to do is examine data, evaluate it in context, and examine its content to reach certain iNFERENCES and CONCLUSIONS that cannot be scientifically proven one way or the other since this is not an exact science.

You insist that the epistles NEED Acts and the gospels to resolve the lack of information exactly as a believing Christian would do. You don't even consider the possibility that the epistles emerged BEFORE the contents of gospel stories were even finalized, which is why they lack the information found elsewhere.

aa5874

You already told me that you SPECULATE. I did NOT come here to Speculate and INVENT imaginary evidence.

You cannot blame me for your speculation and flawed opinion. You must accept responsibility for your own errors.

It is quite common place throughout the world for ordinary people to examine written statements and make Logical deductions. In court trials the jurors are NOT all or expected to be rocket Scientists just ordinary people.

Ordinary people can examine written statements and make reasonable conclusions.

We have written statements in Acts of the Apostles, the Gospels and the Pauline letters so there is NO need to speculate.


We have DATED Textx by Paleography and C 14 so there is no need to continue to IMAGINE and Speculate.

I will DEAL with the statements that are Documented in the Canon and the DATED Text.

By the way, why don't you even speculate that the Pauline epistles are AFTER Acts of the Apostles??/

Duvduv

<Sigh> AA, unfortunately you seem unable to see what you do yourself. You speculate and infer, which all that anyone can do. You rely on "proof" from texts that you yourself know to be altered, forged or interpolated.

I guess we have come to the end of the road on this discussion.

aa5874

Again, you ADMIT your own problem. You MUST accept responsibility for your own actions and desist from blaming others when your errors are pointed out.

The author of Acts made certain claims but NEVER did state that Saul/Paul wrote any letters and in fact it is found in Acts that Paul and his group ACTED as "POSTMEN" for the Jerusalem church.

It can be reasonably logically deduced that Acts of the Apostles was written BEFORE the Pauline letters were composed since the author Acts wrote many many things about Saul/Paul and is unlikely to forget that he wrote letters to churches just like the Jerusalem church.

Duvduv

It's OK, AA. You aren't following my points and I can't really figure out why. But we'll leave this issue I guess.