Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RBH · 07-05-2005, 01:35 PM

Split from E/C.

RBH
E/C Moderator

Aegeri · 07-05-2005, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rluvsb

God does not intend for people to suffer, it is because of the choices of others and their sin that people suffer under oppression. You do not repay sin with sin. If the husband waas loving his wife as Christ loved the Church (he gave his life for it) there wouldn't be the abuse in the first place. When the husband is trained by our society that he is just having primal urges that are remnants of his ape ancestry, it does not surprise me that he acts like an animal. If you ask "Where is God when bad things happen?", the answer is we have kicked him out of our schools and our government and our laws and our society.

There are several problems with this argument however:

1) Morality does not require faith for something to have. Very clearly, there are atheists I have met that are amazingly moral people who stand for everything Christ does, but in their own manner. Ghandi commented that Christians are very unlike their Christ, and people like Brian Tamihere and Fred Phelps prove that succinctly.

2) Most of the worlds worst major massacres and horrendous events were caused by people of faith. There is no point in denying the roles of religion behind the slaughter of innocents in Dublin by Cromwell, or the massacre and butchery that occured during the Crusades (by both sides).

3) Again, tying into 2, Governments since they have largely become more secular have greatly improved human rights records as a general rule. Under more theocratic based regimes there were numerous massacres of people with different views and positions, such as the Bartholemews day massacre. There is no point in denying that religion has been warped and manipulated by many people, governments and insititutions for years.

In any event:

Where was God to stop the rise of Hitler to power? Hitler was a devout Christian (as well as being insane) who believed in God and particularly ascribed the creationist idea of 'kinds'. This allowed him to easily parcel off the Jews into another race and formed the basis for his pseudoscientific clap trap involving 'pure blood' and the struggle for racial purity between races* (A Jew could only produce a Jew to Hitler, any part of you was Jewish that was it, you were a Jew). Where exactly did Christianity make Hitler any better a person? Does it make him better than Stalin, who was an equally as nasty piece of work, but then again he's atheist! Undoubtably you will accuse Hitler of not being a 'true Christian' then turn around and claim that Stalin is the prime example of 'atheist' morality right?

*Which was the equally as pseudoscientific rubbish known as Eugenics.

Peez · 07-05-2005, 02:22 PM

I love it when atheists have to teach Christians about what is in their Bible.

Quote:

Aegeri:
Would you demand a woman that spoke in Church be thrown out?
rluvsb:
Can you give me that reference? I understand that God intends men to be the leaders of the church, not that they may not speak.

Gee, no sexism there.

Quote:

intrepidation:
First Corinthians, 14:34-35

In case anyone does not have a Bible handy, there is The Unbound Bible:

Quote:

1 Corinthians 14
34. The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
35. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Next.

Quote:

rluvsb:
If you are a slave you should do your best to serve your master. That doesn ot mean that people should take slaves.

What an enlightened point of view: if you are a slave you should accept it and serve your master. :down: As for whether you should take slaves, if you are not supposed to then why does the Bible give instructions on how you are supposed to treat your slaves?

Quote:

Exodus 21
2. "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
3. "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
4. "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.
5. "But if the slave plainly says, `I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'
6. then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
7. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
8. "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
9. "If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
10. "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
11. "If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

20. "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
21. "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

There is a lot more, of course.

Quote:

rluvsb:
Where in the Bible are demons held responsible for diseases?

Here:

Quote:

Matthew 9
32. As they were going out, a mute, demon-possessed man was brought to Him.
33. After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke...

and here:

Quote:

Matthew 12
22. Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw.

and here:

Quote:

Matthew 17
15. "Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.
16. "I brought him to Your disciples, and they could not cure him."
17. And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me."
18. And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once.

Then we have

Quote:

rluvsb:
If the husband waas loving his wife as Christ loved the Church (he gave his life for it) there wouldn't be the abuse in the first place.

Nice try to avoid the issue. The fact is that women do get abused, as presumably your god forsaw. In fact, given the attention to this issue in the Bible, presumably it happened back then too. What does the Bible advise women to do under these circumstances?

Quote:

1 Peter 3
1. In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,

Even if such a god existed, I would be loth to worship it.

Peez

Matt the Medic · 07-05-2005, 02:25 PM

It's okay, Peez. I myself was Christian until I read the Bible.

Aegeri · 07-05-2005, 02:54 PM

In any event, I wouldn't mind having my question answered rluvsb:

Why is a literal reading of some of the Bible and following it as 'the truth' important in one context but yet, a non-literal reading is required for other parts of the bible? Again rluvsb, would you demand a woman to be thrown out of Church if she spoke? Yes or no will suffice.

Or again, is a 'literal' reading of the bible really the untenable position I think it is?

RidgeBe · 07-05-2005, 03:00 PM

rluvsb-

Perhaps an example will help you: My Bacteriology professor, one of the nicest but toughest teachers I ever had was a devout church goer. When, as one of its researchers, he walked into Kettering Institute, whose sole mandate was to uncover the mysteries of photosynthesis, he would say, looking at the lush green lawn and bushes "God's handiwork." But as soon as he walked through the institute's door, he would say, "How does that work?"

Science and theology address two very different questions, and if each is properly conducted, don't trespass on each other's fields of inquiry.

gregor · 07-06-2005, 05:53 AM

rluvsb

Do you not concede that even you pick and chose which parts of the Bible to accept? If not, please tell us whether you comply with ALL the OT laws as commanded in Matthew.

Jack the Bodiless · 07-06-2005, 09:15 AM

rluvsb:

...I don't get it. Why are you so reliant on the Bible at all?

Don't you believe there is an actual God who you can communicate with? Why do you need to read the Bible? Can't a Christian still be a Christian if he can't read, or doesn't have access to a Bible?

Are you aware that some Christians refer to Biblical inerrantism as "Bibliolatry", a form of idolatry: worshipping a book, rather than God?

Sven · 07-07-2005, 02:16 AM

The ugliness of Christian "morality" again rears its head:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rluvsb

I read it in context. You mentioned slavery, which was a historical truth and continues today. If you are a slave you should do your best to serve your master.

Here you have it in plain words: If a slave objected to being a slave, this would be wrong in rluvsb's eyes. Unbelievable.

ETA: I see that others already made this point, but repeating this one more time is certainly justified.

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07-05-2005, 01:35 PM	#31
RBH Contributor Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 15,407	Split from E/C. RBH E/C Moderator

07-05-2005, 02:25 PM	#34
Matt the Medic Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 9,584	It's okay, Peez. I myself was Christian until I read the Bible.

07-05-2005, 02:54 PM	#35
Aegeri Regular Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 404	In any event, I wouldn't mind having my question answered rluvsb: Why is a literal reading of some of the Bible and following it as 'the truth' important in one context but yet, a non-literal reading is required for other parts of the bible? Again rluvsb, would you demand a woman to be thrown out of Church if she spoke? Yes or no will suffice. Or again, is a 'literal' reading of the bible really the untenable position I think it is?

07-05-2005, 03:00 PM	#36
RidgeBe Regular Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 353	rluvsb- Perhaps an example will help you: My Bacteriology professor, one of the nicest but toughest teachers I ever had was a devout church goer. When, as one of its researchers, he walked into Kettering Institute, whose sole mandate was to uncover the mysteries of photosynthesis, he would say, looking at the lush green lawn and bushes "God's handiwork." But as soon as he walked through the institute's door, he would say, "How does that work?" Science and theology address two very different questions, and if each is properly conducted, don't trespass on each other's fields of inquiry.

07-06-2005, 05:53 AM	#37
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	rluvsb Do you not concede that even you pick and chose which parts of the Bible to accept? If not, please tell us whether you comply with ALL the OT laws as commanded in Matthew.

07-06-2005, 09:15 AM	#38
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	rluvsb: ...I don't get it. Why are you so reliant on the Bible at all? Don't you believe there is an actual God who you can communicate with? Why do you need to read the Bible? Can't a Christian still be a Christian if he can't read, or doesn't have access to a Bible? Are you aware that some Christians refer to Biblical inerrantism as "Bibliolatry", a form of idolatry: worshipping a book, rather than God?

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