angelo

Exactly what I think. If an alien who arrived from another planet was reading these posts, he/it would believe we are disputing historical facts.
No matter what spin is placed on the gospels, they are nothing more than a hosh posh of myths and legends finaly written down at least 40-50 years after the facts. [if any]
For example, if all Jesu's followers ran away at the arrest and crucifiction, who was there to record what was said and what took place in his trial, or what Jesus said while hanging from the cross? :banghead:

thentian

You're not trying to make it appear as if it is I who am reading the text in an unusual manner, I hope? Au contraire! ALL the bible translators of this text reads it like me! It is dlb's (and your) interpretation that is the never-before-done interpretation. Find me a reputable scholar who interprets it like you do, if you can! I am not fishing for a contradiction, but simply arguing that KAI IDOU in Matt 28:9 is to be read exactly like KAI IDOU is read everywhere else in Matthew's gospel!

Agreed! They are making the same assumption I am, as does every bible translation I have found. Time to bring them in, I guess:

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King James Version
28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

American Standard Version
28:9 And behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and took hold of his feet, and worshipped him.

Bible in Basic English
28:9 And on the way, Jesus came to them, saying, Be glad. And they came and put their hands on his feet, and gave him worship.

Darby's English Translation
28:9 And as they went to bring his disciples word, behold also, Jesus met them, saying, Hail! And they coming up took him by the feet, and did him homage.

Douay Rheims
28:9 And behold Jesus met them, saying: All hail. But they came up and took hold of his feet, and adored him.

Noah Webster Bible
28:9 And as they were going to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came, and held him by the feet, and worshiped him.

Weymouth New Testament
28:9 And then suddenly they saw Jesus coming to meet them. "Peace be to you," He said. And they came and clasped His feet, bowing to the ground before Him.

World English Bible
28:9 As they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" They came and took hold of his feet, and worshiped him.

Young's Literal Translation
28:9 and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!` and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did bow to him.

New American Standard Version
28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

The Message
28:8-10 The women, deep in wonder and full of joy, lost no time in leaving the tomb. They ran to tell the disciples. Then Jesus met them, stopping them in their tracks. "Good morning!" he said. They fell to their knees, embraced his feet, and worshiped him. Jesus said, "You're holding on to me for dear life! Don't be frightened like that. Go tell my brothers that they are to go to Galilee, and that I'll meet them there."

Amplified Bible
28:9 And as they went, behold, Jesus met them and said, Hail (greetings)! And they went up to Him and clasped His feet and worshiped Him.

New Living Translation
28:9 And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped him.

English Standard Version
28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Contemporary English Version
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them and greeted them. They went near him, held on to his feet, and worshiped him.

New King James Version
28:9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

New Century Version
28:9 Suddenly, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings." The women came up to him, took hold of his feet, and worshiped him.

21st Century King James version
28:9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "All hail." And they came, and held Him by the feet, and worshiped

Holman Christian Standard Bible
28:9 Just then Jesus met them and said, "Good morning!" They came up, took hold of His feet, and worshiped Him

New International Reader's Version
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings!" he said. They came to him, took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Wycliffe New Testament
28:9 And lo! Jesus met them, and said [saying], Hail ye. And they approached, and held his feet, and worshipped him

Worldwide English New Testament
28:9 As they were going, Jesus met them. He said `Greetings!' The women bowed down in front of him and put their hands on his feet.

New English Version (UK)
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. Greetings, he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him.

Today's New International Version
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him


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A wee bit of misrepresantation there I think. I already stated that I don't think KAI IDOU should always be translated with "suddenly". It's more like: whenever we see Matthew using KAI IDOU, it is linked to the foregoing, and now comes a highlight. Additionally, I am saying that this is how it is with Matthew, so bringing in Luke is off the mark (no pun intended)!

What's more; Luke is here using KAI IDOU exactly like Matthew does! The story does NOT start at 7:37! It starts with Jesus going to the pharisee's house, and then (highlight!) a sinful woman, who has heard that Jesus is there, arrives with an alabaster jar!

7:36 And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he entered into the Pharisee`s house, and sat down to meat.
7:37 And behold (KAI IDOU), a woman who was in the city, a sinner; and when she knew that he was sitting at meat in the Pharisee`s house, she brought an alabaster cruse of ointment,
7:38 and standing behind at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.


I am tempted to say "bring in the evidence", but this isn't really what is the issue. The problem is that John and Matthew have the meetings in a different chronological order, which is a problem for those who claim biblical inerrancy. If you're a christian liberal you can just shrug your shoulders and say: "So what? They agree that the meeting happened, and that's what matters." Only if you claim that the bible is literally true everywhere do you have a problem, because the same meeting with J can't have happened both before and after the meeting with the disciples. The whole point of The Easter Challenge is to get you inerrantists (assuming you're one) to admit that the bible isn't literally true everywhere. (Yup! We're trying to turn you into a bunch of jelly-livered liberals!)

You claim that Matthew starts a new story with that?!?

sschlichter

American Standard Version
28:9 And behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and took hold of his feet, and worshipped him.

Douay Rheims
28:9 And behold Jesus met them, saying: All hail. But they came up and took hold of his feet, and adored him.

Weymouth New Testament
28:9 And then suddenly they saw Jesus coming to meet them. "Peace be to you," He said. And they came and clasped His feet, bowing to the ground before Him.

New American Standard Version
28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

English Standard Version
28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Contemporary English Version
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them and greeted them. They went near him, held on to his feet, and worshiped him.

New Century Version
28:9 Suddenly, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings." The women came up to him, took hold of his feet, and worshiped him.

New International Reader's Version
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings!" he said. They came to him, took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Wycliffe New Testament
28:9 And lo! Jesus met them, and said [saying], Hail ye. And they approached, and held his feet, and worshipped him

New English Version (UK)
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. Greetings, he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him.

Today's New International Version
28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him

WestCott-Hort Greek New Testament
28:9 kai idou ihsouj uphnthsen autaij legwn


These versions are all saying the same thing as I am. 28:8 occurs before 28:9. Which verse did they run and tell the disciples? verse 8 which occurs before 9. When does Matthew mention the running to tell to the disciples? verse 10? No!, verse 8.

All of these versions say the same thing. The text does not specifically say before they got to the disciples or after so a good translation will leave it at that.

It starts with Jesus going to the Pharisees house. but he got to the house in the same way the women got to the disciples. you are stating this when you say she heard he was there.

Does this happen before or after verse 8? 28:9 kai idou ihsouj uphnthsen autaij legwn


No, they are not. 28:9 conventiently happens after 28:8. 28:8 is where the telling of the disciples occurs and 28:9 is where the meeting is.

new story!?? what new story? claiming the women ran to tell the disciples and then Jesus met them is a new story?

sschlichter

You beleive in aliens?

Where does it say ALL the disiples? Where was John while Jesus was on the cross. Where was Mary? (either Mary), where was Nicodemus, and the other Pharisees that later became beleivers. I bet they knew what Jesus said on the cross.

thentian

Hopefully, this is just about my usage of the word "story", which should perhaps have been sub-story or something like that. I really hope we haven't been talking about different things all the time!

I mean it in the sense that meeting the angels and then running to tell the disciples would be one story (sub-story of the overall story is better, perhaps?), and meeting Jesus and telling the disciples about that would be another (sub)story. So the way I look at it, when you claim that the stuff from John happens between Matt 28:8 and Matt 28:9, then you are saying that the story about the women meeting J in Matthew starts at 28:9.

Doug Shaver

Indeed?

I am in possession of a document that begins as follows:

Excerpted from the Journals of Candidia Maria Smith-Foster:

Yes, Posterity, your Humble Historiographer does feel guilty about this -- but what was Teacher thinking? What did he expect? What else could I do . . . ?

Oops. Forgetting manners. (There's a surprise.) Sorry. All right; let's start over.

Hi, Posterity; Candy Smith-Foster here again . . . .

Fiction or nonfiction? And how do you know?

I see no reason to suppose that if Luke was writing fiction, he was intending to deceive anyone.

sschlichter

yes, but it does not have to be segregated so. They ran and told the disciples (which entails the entire event of following the disciples back to the tomb, the disciples leaving - all of which Matt excluded no matter where you think it occurred), it was then that Jesus appeared to them. I understand that you might not agree, but I really do not see a way for you to deny that this is possible from Matt 28:8 and 9. externally, it is not only possible but likely because it has some of the same content as recorded by John. it is also after this that John records Mary M telling them about the meeting with Jesus. Internally, you cannot deny this possibility, externally, in light of John it becomes very liekly that they are talking about the same meeting.

~Steve

rizdek

Exactly, the account is self contradictory without even reading the other accounts that contradict it. It's not an interpretation, that's what the words say.

sschlichter

I don't know, but in the case of Luke, he is speaking to a real person and advising him of the account he is supplying in an orderly manner.

sschlichter

No, my friend, it is not. If I promise not to tell someone about a surprise party, it is implied that it is ok to tell them after the party. they did not tell someone 'for they were afraid'. the silence is obviously associated with the fear. It does not say they took it to their grave.

~Steve