Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 01-25-2013, 05:48 AM

Of course even if they did, it would do no good. Fomenko could simply dismiss the, without breaking a sweat, as forgeries.

Never believe any theory which has excuses to ignore evidence.

andrewcriddle · 01-26-2013, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Hmm, poisoning.... The well, of course. Nobody was talking about Roman law, so Roger decided to derail the issue. While mixing metaphors, I should point out that Roger is trying to construct a straw man argument, but lacks the raw materials and the technical expertise here to do so. His discussion of "law" is irrelevant. Nero got to the throne because his predecessor was, umm, poisoned, just as his rival was. Poisoning was a well-known method at the time. But burning people wasn't recorded up to the time. Ordinary people tended to get crucified or put to the sword. We should consider Drews's observation with a little more care than what Roger does, that human torches et al. suggest an imagination exalted by reading stories of the later Christian martyrs.

It has been suggested that juvenal satire 1 lines 155-7

Quote:

pone Tigellinum: taeda lucebis in illa
qua stantes ardent qui fixo gutture fumant,
et latum media sulcum deducis harena.

attempted translation

Quote:

But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.

is corroboration of people being burned as a penalty in the time of Tigellinus prefect under Nero.

There is a major corruption in the text which makes interpretation difficult but it does seem to refer to burning people alive as a punishment.

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan · 01-26-2013, 02:47 AM

The entire passage.....

""To these ways of ours Posterity will have nothing to add; our grandchildren will do the same things, and desire the same things, that we do. All vice is at its acme;34 up with your sails and shake out every stitch of canvas! Here perhaps you will say, "Where find the talent to match the theme? Where find that freedom of our forefathers to write whatever the burning soul desired? 'What man is there that I dare not name? What matters it whether Mucius forgives my words or no?35'" But just describe Tigellinus 36 and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you 37 trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.""

Tigellinus was head of Rome's fire brigade. On the basis of this basis, if authentic, one wonders what was in the Tacitus passage before it was altered.

DCHindley · 01-26-2013, 10:36 AM

Vork,

Yet, the sense of the entire passage is a lament that Romans could not follow in their ancestors manner of life on account of the fact that in his times powerful men have made freedom of expression dangerous to one's life.

I broke the Latin down by clause (arbitrary using commas, periods, colons or question marks), and then used Google Translate (and a lot of editing to preserve word order as best as possible) to give it the following sense:

(147) Nil erit ulterius quod nostris moribus addat (148a) posteritas,	(147) Nothing to our customs further shall be added (148a) by posterity
(148b) eadem facient cupientque minores,	(148b) to do the same wish the smaller (ones),
(149a) omne in praecipiti vitium stetit.	(149a) every vice remains.
(149b) utere velis, (150a) totos pande sinus.	(149b) employ curtains, (150a) entirely show its folds.
(150b) dicas hic forsitan "unde (151a) ingenium par materiae?	(150b) You would say here perhaps "From whence does [come] (151a) talent equal to the theme (set by our fathers)?
(151b) unde illa priorum (152) scribendi quodcumque animo flagrante liberet (153a) simplicitas?	(151b) whence those the former (152) wrote whatever the burning soul delivered (153a) frankly?
(153b) 'cuius non audeo dicere nomen?	(153b) 'whose name I do not dare to say?
(154) quid refert, dictis ignoscat Mucius an non? ' "	(154) What is the difference, (whether) statements are forgiven by Mutius, or not?' "[35]
(155a) pone Tigellinum:	(155a) Describe Tigellinus [36]:
(155b) taeda lucebis in illa (156) qua stantes ardent qui fixo gutture fumant,	(155b) [and] a torch will shine in the [place] (156) where standing (you) burn (with) throat fixed [to a stake] smoking,
(157) et latum media sulcum deducis harena.	(157) And dragged down the wide furrow from the middle of the arena.

[35] Apparently a quotation from Lucilius, being an attack on P. Mucius Scaevola.
[36] An infamous favourite of Nero's.
[37] [I think that the word fumant "smoking" belongs in line 157 to read "And dragged /smoking/ down the wide furrow from the middle of the arena."]

It is a lament that the decadent powerful men of his time had stifled the independent spirit of their forefathers by severely punishing anyone who dared speak frankly about them. In reality, a Roman citizen would be executed by sword or ordered to commit suicide, so what he says in lines 156-157 is most likely hyperbole based on current events, although I do not know if the ones being burned this way are necessarily Christians. Still, I really don't see how this burning and smoking relates to the duty of leader of the city's fire brigade, unless one think line 156-157 relates to hauling sand from trenches to extinguish fires. How would that relate to the consequences of free speech?

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

The entire passage.....

""To these ways of ours Posterity will have nothing to add; our grandchildren will do the same things, and desire the same things, that we do. All vice is at its acme;34 up with your sails and shake out every stitch of canvas! Here perhaps you will say, "Where find the talent to match the theme? Where find that freedom of our forefathers to write whatever the burning soul desired? 'What man is there that I dare not name? What matters it whether Mucius forgives my words or no?35'" But just describe Tigellinus 36 and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you 37 trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.""

Tigellinus was head of Rome's fire brigade. On the basis of this basis, if authentic, one wonders what was in the Tacitus passage before it was altered.

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01-25-2013, 05:48 AM	#21
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Of course even if they did, it would do no good. Fomenko could simply dismiss the, without breaking a sweat, as forgeries. Never believe any theory which has excuses to ignore evidence.

01-26-2013, 02:47 AM	#23
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	The entire passage..... ""To these ways of ours Posterity will have nothing to add; our grandchildren will do the same things, and desire the same things, that we do. All vice is at its acme;34 up with your sails and shake out every stitch of canvas! Here perhaps you will say, "Where find the talent to match the theme? Where find that freedom of our forefathers to write whatever the burning soul desired? 'What man is there that I dare not name? What matters it whether Mucius forgives my words or no?35'" But just describe Tigellinus 36 and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you 37 trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena."" Tigellinus was head of Rome's fire brigade. On the basis of this basis, if authentic, one wonders what was in the Tacitus passage before it was altered.

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