stephan huller

No this was the point of my long explanation. The term simply means 'SOMETHING anointed.' It took on the meaning of 'anointed one' artificially later and only means something special in the artificial world of religion and theology. The actual literal meaning is quite boring and uninteresting. It is properly defined as pertaining to royalty if associated with human beings. As Jesus was not a king nor a temporal ruler or a king it must have been jarring and quite unusual to associate the term with him. That Jesus raised the possibility of the fulfillment of this expectation for the coming of such a ruler does not necessarily mean he applied the office to himself. The idea of Jesus as the one who announces the one to come is the rule rather than the exception in Semitic Christianity.

MCalavera

Religious, theological. That's the context that matters here.

tanya

Thanks for your comment.

I hope I am not wrong, that one purpose of this forum is to give voice to alternative explanations.

I do NOT disagree that Mashiakh = Cristou = Annointed.

I disagree that the English word "Messiah" corresponds to Mashiakh. Rather, I believe it is derived from Moshiah--> Soter --> Saviour (the tail of the fish).

What is required, by someone who knows well the Hexapla, (I do not), and Origen's comments regarding Jesus of Nazareth, is to examine whether or not the habit of defining Jesus as "cristou", rather than "soter", is in harmony with the earliest writings: i.e. gospels.

Perhaps one can uncover a clue about the original date of authorship of Paul's epistles, by examining this issue. Casual reading of the gospels, as I recall, perhaps wrongly, mentions "cristou", rather infrequently, but in Paul's epistles, "cristou" dominates. ? evidence of interpolation, ? if so, why? What purpose could be gained thereby?

When did "Messiah" become attached to "cristou", rather than "soter", its more logical association?

MCalavera

Your added assumptions demand more evidence.

We'll give your last question a go once we gain access to the needed evidence.

For now, there's no issue with the mainstream opinion as it's simpler and fits anyway.

stephan huller

Because Jesus and Christ were not held to be the same figure by at least one half of the early Church. Nevertheless, Christ is the Greek translation of the Jewish word for anointed one. You can keep banging your head against the wall as many times as you want, its not going to change that basic fact.

tanya

Thanks for your comment.

I have written a couple of times, already, let me try again.

Should I use a different color?

ok, not necessary.

I do not disagree with the idea that Mashiakh = Cristou = Annointed

I do disagree that "Messiah", the English word, is derived from Mashiakh. It is derived from the Greek/Latin words messias, in turn coming from the Hebrew word Moshiah, meaning SAVIOUR, i.e. Soter in Greek, NOT Cristou.

I disagree that annointment per se, identifies a messiah. It is a procedure employed by, for, and upon countless thousands of Jewish male religious leaders.

In contrast, a Messiah-->Moshiah is a SAVIOUR, not just any old annointed guy.

I sought to search Patrologie, cursus completus, edited by J.-P. Migne, which contains Origen's complete works, in Greek, however, it is a digital image, not readily searched using available search engines.

I need to locate an ocr (optical character reader), capable of searching the text of this document, to learn what Origen wrote about soter versus cristou. He would have, as creator of the Hexapla, understood the distinction between Mashiakh, and Moshiah, even if, apparently, no one on this forum understands the distinction.

MCalavera

Once again, claims that need to be backed up with evidence. Provide the evidence, and we'll see.

Until then, the simplest explanation that fits with the evidence we have access to is the mainstream one.

Sheshbazzar

Tanya it appears that you are not proficient in Hebrew and are thus jumping to the erroneous conclusion that the meaning of the Hebrew term מושיע 'mo'shia' always equates with SAVIOUR.
While it is true that the KJV does translate this word מושיע 'moshiah' as 'Saviour' 12 times, what is hidden from the eyes of a purely English reader (and which you will not easily discover simply by means of a Concordance or Commentary) is that this word מושיע does have other applications, and DOES NOT always equate with 'SAVIOUR'
(as you have emphasized it in its highest sense by CAPITALIZATION, a sense that it is not always indicative of. Along with your "not just any old guy' comment.)
Sometimes in Hebrew, a 'moshiah' is not a 'guy', (nor the messiah) or even any individual at all. (see the examples below)

The Hebrew root word is ישע 'ya'sha' is an idiom with a range of meanings which are determined by the context. With a sense of 'save(ing)', 'help(ing)', 'rescue(ing)', 'avenge(ing)', 'overcome(ing)', 'victory (ious)'.
Thus it is not always proper to understand or to render the term 'moshiah' as 'SAVIOUR'.

Or perhaps it is better to explain it this way, when a Hebrew root word is prefixed with the letter מ 'mem' it modifies the root word by the English equivalent of 'which is....' as in 'which is saved' , 'which is helped' 'which is rescued', or similar English synonyms.

Now for a couple of examples of Biblical verses where מושיע 'moshiah' does not mean 'SAVIOUR', or even refer to 'THE SAVIOUR'.
The word translated as RESCUE > 'moshiah', is NOT being employed as a title, and obviously does not refer to THE 'Messiah'.

Also the Greek translations of these verses does not use the word 'Soter' as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew 'moshiah' in these instances.

Thus, on this and other considerations, I do not find nor believe that you are correct in attempting to dogmatically equate 'moshiah' with SAVIOUR. Although it is one of the most common translations.

And as far as I am aware, in every usage of 'messiah' it is the English rendition of the Hebrew word משיח 'mashich' (mah'shee'kah') and Greek form of 'mashich' -messias- meaning 'anointed', NOT from the term 'moshiah'.

I will be very interested if you can provide detailed information proving otherwise.


Respectfully, Sheshbazzar the Hebrew





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mrsonic

in the torah when the word does mean to rescue someone is physical combat involved? if yes, then there is no support for the christian misuse of moshayiah.christians believe that there god is a spiritual saviour, is it true that the idea of spiritual moshiyah does not exist in the torah?

MCalavera

Yes, it became too spiritual when they realized the supposed Messiah failed to do the expected things physically on earth.