Freethought & Rationalism Archive

frostymama · 09-29-2005, 06:07 AM

I'm in the midst of a debate on the infamous Proverbs verses about child discipline. I could care less if someone spanks their kids, but some of the most vocal Christian posters are insist the these verses are about "gentle guidance" because God would never command a parent to stike a child.

The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

Is ther any way that:

Quote:

Proverb 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Proverb 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

can be interpreted as gentle? As I understand the word "nakah" (Strong's 05221) translated as beat is pretty straightforward.

frostymama · 09-29-2005, 08:15 AM

Nevermind. I think I won't pursue this any further. I give up.

It is like debating a child with their fingers in their ears. I'd rather not waste my time.

pharoah · 09-29-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostymama

Nevermind. I think I won't pursue this any further. I give up.

It is like debating a child with their fingers in their ears. I'd rather not waste my time.

Don't give up yet. Just give them these two verses from Exodus 21 to rationalize away.

21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

frostymama · 09-29-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

Don't give up yet. Just give them these two verses from Exodus 21 to rationalize away.

21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

It is beyond all hope. She started shreiking "Who is SHE to tell us we are wrong" like just because I am an atheist I should know nothing about the Bible. Forget the fact the I only deconverted 4 years ago and I was a Xian for 17 years.

Whatever. :banghead: It just isn't that important in the scheme of things. Maybe it will encourage someone reading the thread to grab a Bible and actually read the damn thing instead of relying on the pap their pastor feeds them every Sunday. No matter what their conclusion was afterwards, that would thrill me to no end.

Toto · 09-29-2005, 10:47 AM

There is a chapter in Fundamentals of Extremism on child abuse Proverbs. It was a too hard on my stomach to read the entire chapter - parents who take the Bible literally have used it as a justification to beat their children to death.

So, in a way, I would prefer that Bible believing Christians interpret that verse to refer to gentle correction.

Quote:

Religious affiliation has been found to be a better predictor of violent behavior toward children than age, gender, social class or size of residence with conservative religions the more violent. Indeed, the fundamentalist is correct in saying that the Bible prescribes corporal punishment. . . .

For those who do take it literally, a child is a beast to be tamed, not a person to be taught. Religious conservatives talk about the “problem�? of willful children and the need for the child to learn obedience, not so much through trust as through fear. Proverbs 22:15 is consistent with the concept of original sin, as well as with other scripture, in its proclamation, “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.�?

. . . .

Irwin Hyman of Temple University's National Center for the Study of Corporal Punishment and Alternatives says that although all data are inexact, his perceptions are that while spanking in educational institutions is decreasing, even among Catholic schools, which have been known to rely heavily on corporal punishment in the past, "…it is increasing in the Christian academies with a fundamentalist bent."

Fundamentalist Christian schools, like the homes their students come from, are often unbending in their determination to keep to scriptural punishment. Pediatrician Dr. Eli Newberger recalls testifying in a South Carolina case. A nine-month old baby had been spanked to the point of bruising because he was crying. This happened during his first week in the church-run day-care center, a time when an infant would be expected to cry. The state offered to allow the center to remain open if it would stop corporal punishment, but the minister refused on Biblical grounds.

. . .

While it’s clear that fundamentalists are not alone among Americans who spank their children, they, unlike most others are not allowed to reexamine this method when it becomes obvious that it isn’t working. Fundamentalists are virtually alone in holding an explicit belief that the welfare of the child is secondary to the rule of Biblical discipline. For the most part, American society and government have forsaken the children of these zealots, trusting in the scant mercies of the parents, who often hide their own misbehavior in their country’s respect for the privacy of families.

Clivedurdle · 09-29-2005, 01:25 PM

But this is a major issue of child abuse. Most of Europe now has laws that any violence towards a child is at least criminal assault.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-29-2005, 08:15 AM	#2
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	Nevermind. I think I won't pursue this any further. I give up. It is like debating a child with their fingers in their ears. I'd rather not waste my time.

09-29-2005, 01:25 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	But this is a major issue of child abuse. Most of Europe now has laws that any violence towards a child is at least criminal assault.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.