Sheshbazzar

I perceive you spent too many hours sitting in the tent of your old pal Loomis, we have touched on the subject of Deut. 32 before.
And as I stated in another place, the Scriptures are composed of more than just the half dozen verses that you can creatively 'interpret' in ways contrary to the evidence of hundreds of other verses, to introduce 'contradictions' contrived and crafted to fit your preconceptions.

spin

Yes, actually. But this attempt to sideline your problems is a transparent admission that you have nothing whatsoever to support Hebrew monotheism.

The religion of Akhenaten, a political move which developed among the pharaohs at least from the time of Tuthmosis IV, who had a vision of Ra-Harakhte (the solar disk), was initially an attempt by the pharaohs to reduce the control of the priests of Amun, but was taken on by Akhenaten as a personal religion which was not available to the ordinary people of Egypt. (Akhenaten didn't care.) As it was not available to the masses, it wasn't understood or transmitted to anyone and died within five years of his own death. It was Tutankhamun who returned the capital to Thebes and the religion to Amun.

It's quite true that the Hebrews lived in a cultural continuum. They were Canaanites with a Canaanite language and a Canaanite religion featuring Canaanite gods, such as El and Asherah. There was direct Egyptian influence in Canaan from the time of Chephren through to the Persian era, as can be seen by the voluminous store of scarabs in Israeli museums. That influence doesn't hide the basic Canaanite underpinnings to the Hebrew society.

Still not a jot of evidence for your monotheistic fantasies regarding the Jews.

Nothing comes of nothing. Speak again(, Cordelia).


spin

Sheshbazzar

A Book, and a 'People of the Book', are the 'evidence', choose any date, in any time that is pleasing to you, for the time of the composition of the Tanaka, At that time there certainly were "Hebrew" monotheist's in existence, it would be very peculiar indeed if they had no past.

spin

I see you're still making presumptuous, rash statements.

Well, you might try to deal with it this time, though I won't hold my breath in expectation. Facts are not a strong point of yours.

So you can pick and choose what appeals to your brand of belief. Very handy, but quite meaningless.

I'm not interested in contradictions. You can run along and play that game elsewhere. Stick around if you have facts to throw into the pot of understanding. Your empty rhetoric is a waste of our (your and my) time.

Nothing grows in a vacuum. The Jewish religion is no exception. We have to look at at the garden in which this religion grew. There we find the notion of a council of gods is not strange. El presided over such a council in the religion of Ugarit, just as (El) Elyon presided over a council refered to in Dt 32. Yahweh is a receiver of a portion, given by Elyon.

Even when Elohim and Yahweh seem to have merged, we still have Elohim most definitely standing in the council of El (B(DT )L) in Ps 82; obviously this Elohim and that El are two separate entities. El is a wild ox (Num 24:8), just as in Ugarit, El is a bull. Yahweh is associated with a holy mountain (in Ps.48:3 also named Zaphon) and is at times a storm god (his weapons in Ps 83:16 are the tempest and the whirlwind). These of course are traits of Baal, whose palace was on Mt Zaphon.

Before you start to make airy-fairy connections with the monotheistic aberration of Akhenaten, you need to deal with the many solid connections of one Canaanite religion (the early Hebrew religion) and another (Ugarit).


spin

Sheshbazzar

Sorry spin, but you were the one demanding 'evidence' that the concept of monotheism existed in that 'era', Evidence that was not solely dependent upon anything written within the text of the Bible that repudiated polytheism,
i.e. you find it convenient to use 'idols' and 'inscriptions' as supposedly irrefutable 'evidence' that ONLY polytheism existed in that 'era'. (along with 'selected' Scriptures)
Depending on whose chronology you use, the "aberration of Akheanton"(s) monotheism occurred somewhere around 1375-1200 b.c.e. And likely was common knowledge to all the various countries with which Egypt had social contact. The records do show Akhenaton to be militantly monotheist, whether that 'monotheism' was politically inspired is irrelevant to the premise that monotheism existed in the era in dispute. (which btw, if it continued for 5 years beyond his death indicates that he was not alone in his monotheism)
As I said earlier there need be only a single individual in all of those countries that held a view similar to Akhenaton's for monotheism to exist.
I admit that I cannot prove that single individual existed, but then neither can you prove conclusively that he did not.
I admit to the Hebrew's connections with the religions of the lands in which they lived, and from which they borrowed or inherited many of their religions story's, songs, poetry, ideas, and many of their 'theological' conceptions.

spin

Enjoy your red herring.

The inscriptions (what's this crap about idols?) indicate polytheism. Nothing in Palestine of the period indicates to the contrary.

Considering the texts have been edited so many times I am impressed that any of the polytheism has survived.

Try some time between 1360 and 1330 for a little precision.

Rubbish. During the reign of Akhenaten things proceeded as normal outside the country. You won't find a single mention of his heresy in the Tell el-Amarna letters. Within the country the people lived in a state of confusion, not knowing what was going on, so the monotheism is rather unlikely to have spread outside Akhenaten's court.

Tutankhamun was originally named Tutankhaten. He was probably son of Akhenaten, so it would have been hard for him to have avoided it. But outside Akhetaten, the city of Akhenaten, it rarely went.

Meaningful.

Let's face it you have no argument at all. Faced with showing any reason to believe that Israel had any monotheism prior to Jeremiah (circa 600 BCE) and you're farting about in Egypt (in 1330 BCE) over a brief experiment that had no effect even in Egypt after the pharaoh's death which you have no means of connecting with anyone outside Akhetaten. You continue to jest. Either cough up a teensy-weensy bit of evidence for your quibbling about the possibility of Jewish monotheism or admit that you simply can't.


spin

spin

Let's get all touchy-feely, though it's no substitute for evidence.

The Hebrew bible wasn't composed at one date. Gawd, what are you on about? Whenever it was parts I've already indicated were written it shows that the central religion contained polytheism. Yahweh's pillar and Asherah's tree in the sanctuary in Josh 24:26. The council of El in Ps 82. El giving Yahweh the portion of Jacob. And lots more.

Aww, c'mon, Sheshbazzar. Ain't got nuffin' to justify your claim of monotheism prior to Jeremiah? With all those "monotheistic reforms" of Josiah, you'd expect the high place near Jerusalem to have been destroyed as per the story in Kings, but the pottery shows it was in operation all the way through the period. A teensy-weensy bit of evidence, huh?


spin

Sheshbazzar

Nice job spin, you win.

spin

Shucks, Sheshbazzar, you're just saying that!

Celsus

That's the first thing you've said that I agree with Shesh. Nice one. By the way, it's not just a "half dozen" verses that attest to polytheistic traces you know, though the admission that they are there is a good start. Psalm 82 by itself already fills that quota, and then you have several chapters in Job, Isaiah, several other Psalms, plenty of ammunition in Deuteronomy, oh and there's more in Ezekiel and Daniel, together with significant hints in Kings, while Genesis stands out for not employing Ugaritic allusions so much as Babylonian ones, Genesis 49 notwithstanding.

And as for Akhenaten. Puh-leez. There's precious little evidence that anyone outside Egypt ever figured the Egyptian religions out, let alone an insignificant heretic's views.

Joel