Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-28-2008, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

What source of antiquity supports your theory?[

The utter lack of any extant references to HJ before the Gospels.

But, the Jews expected a physical Messiah perhaps hundreds of years before the Gospels based on the so-called prophecies in Daniel.

LogicandReason · 12-28-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

The utter lack of any extant references to HJ before the Gospels.

But, the Jews expected a physical Messiah perhaps hundreds of years before the Gospels based on the so-called prophecies in Daniel.

What part of them expecting a physical Messiah verifies the existence of HJ? Fear of death creates the 'desire' for eternity...does that expectation make it so?

The middle of the 2nd century BCE seems to be the period where 'Daniel-like' eschatology began to fester. I have posited that an Essene-like group of this period may be the first 'Kingdom of God' crowd that later develops into the Jesus legend/Christianity.

aa5874 · 12-28-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

when the canonised Acts of the Apostles clearly place Saul/Paul after the stoning of Stephen and the church writer claimed it was said that the letter writer was familiar with the gospel of Luke.

I wanted to revisit this comment...this is the same Acts of the Apostles that tells us a chapter later (9) that Paul goes to the Jewish High Priest to gain permission to go to Damascus to arrest Christians...since when does a Jewish High Priest have the authority to send people into Syria to arrest people? Thus we further evaluate the historical value of 'Acts.' Acts also wants us to believe that 'Paul' was Jerusalem centered and Galatians tells a story of 'Paul' (post-conversion) who was everywhere but Jerusalem. Now if Paul were working for the High Priest in Jerusalem, converted on the way to Damascus, and did not visit Jerusalem again for 3 years...then 14 years later...don't you think someone from the High Priest's office would have noticed him missing? Paul never mentions this in his own letters...he only states that he persecuted Christians. There is nothing in Paul's own writings to infer he was working at one time out of Jerusalem.

Secondly, where does Paul quote 'Luke?' Who is the 'church writer?' The Marcion heresy seems to suggest that 'Paul' was a community that was antisemitic (Marcion certainly was). We never see the Gospels in 'Paul's' writings. The Gospels are a further level of development of the Jesus cult designed to settle disputes by placing dogmatic statements into Jesus' mouth.

Now, since you have problems with the veracity of both Paul and Acts of the Apostles, how are you going to confirm anything in the NT about Paul?

That is why I want to know what sources of antiquity corroborate or just made mention of Paul external of the church writers or the NT.

There are massive holes in the letters and Acts of the Apostles.

LogicandReason · 12-28-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

I wanted to revisit this comment...this is the same Acts of the Apostles that tells us a chapter later (9) that Paul goes to the Jewish High Priest to gain permission to go to Damascus to arrest Christians...since when does a Jewish High Priest have the authority to send people into Syria to arrest people? Thus we further evaluate the historical value of 'Acts.' Acts also wants us to believe that 'Paul' was Jerusalem centered and Galatians tells a story of 'Paul' (post-conversion) who was everywhere but Jerusalem. Now if Paul were working for the High Priest in Jerusalem, converted on the way to Damascus, and did not visit Jerusalem again for 3 years...then 14 years later...don't you think someone from the High Priest's office would have noticed him missing? Paul never mentions this in his own letters...he only states that he persecuted Christians. There is nothing in Paul's own writings to infer he was working at one time out of Jerusalem.

Secondly, where does Paul quote 'Luke?' Who is the 'church writer?' The Marcion heresy seems to suggest that 'Paul' was a community that was antisemitic (Marcion certainly was). We never see the Gospels in 'Paul's' writings. The Gospels are a further level of development of the Jesus cult designed to settle disputes by placing dogmatic statements into Jesus' mouth.

Now, since you have problems with the veracity of both Paul and Acts of the Apostles, how are you going to confirm anything in the NT about Paul?

That is why I want to know what sources of antiquity corroborate or just made mention of Paul external of the church writers or the NT.

There are massive holes in the letters and Acts of the Apostles.

Both are unknown to history (except the NT).

aa5874 · 12-28-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, the Jews expected a physical Messiah perhaps hundreds of years before the Gospels based on the so-called prophecies in Daniel.

What part of them expecting a physical Messiah verifies the existence of HJ? Fear of death creates the 'desire' for eternity...does that expectation make it so?

The middle of the 2nd century BCE seems to be the period where 'Daniel-like' eschatology began to fester. I have posited that an Essene-like group of this period may be the first 'Kingdom of God' crowd that later develops into the Jesus legend/Christianity.

Are you claiming that it was just in the 2nd century that Jews expected a physical Messiah.?

The physical Messiah as written in Daniel predated the Gospels by hundreds of years.

LogicandReason · 12-28-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

What part of them expecting a physical Messiah verifies the existence of HJ? Fear of death creates the 'desire' for eternity...does that expectation make it so?

The middle of the 2nd century BCE seems to be the period where 'Daniel-like' eschatology began to fester. I have posited that an Essene-like group of this period may be the first 'Kingdom of God' crowd that later develops into the Jesus legend/Christianity.

Are you claiming that it was just in the 2nd century that Jews expected a physical Messiah.?

The physical Messiah as written in Daniel predated the Gospels by hundreds of years.

Maybe reading my post would help you...BCE! This is when Daniel was written.

aa5874 · 12-28-2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Are you claiming that it was just in the 2nd century that Jews expected a physical Messiah.?

The physical Messiah as written in Daniel predated the Gospels by hundreds of years.

Maybe reading my post would help you...BCE! This is when Daniel was written.

Yeah, before the Spiritual Christ was born of a virgin and conceived through the Holy Ghost, the physical Messiah was prophesied by Daniel hundreds of years earlier.

Maybe it was in the 2nd century that the Spiritual Messiah was concieved.

LogicandReason · 12-29-2008, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Maybe reading my post would help you...BCE! This is when Daniel was written.

Yeah, before the Spiritual Christ was born of a virgin and conceived through the Holy Ghost, the physical Messiah was prophesied by Daniel hundreds of years earlier.

Maybe it was in the 2nd century that the Spiritual Messiah was concieved.

Or maybe it is just a legend that grew out of extremely oppressed people who were wishing for better in a very confusing world.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-29-2008, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Maybe reading my post would help you...BCE! This is when Daniel was written.

Yeah, before the Spiritual Christ was born of a virgin and conceived through the Holy Ghost,

Leaving aside the fact that no NT writer, including Matthew and Luke, speaks of a ghost as having anything to do with Jesus' conception, is being being born of a "virgin" something that every NT writers who proclaims Jesus to have been/as the Christ, says? Is it something that Mark -- who most definitely proclaims Jesus to be the Christ -- says about Jesus?

Quote:

the physical Messiah was prophesied by Daniel hundreds of years earlier.

"Hundreds" of years?? When specifically do you think the book of Daniel was written?

And where in Daniel is a "physical Messiah" (whatever that term means) spoken of, let alone "prophesied"?

Jeffrey

LogicandReason · 12-29-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Leaving aside the fact that no NT writer, including Matthew and Luke, speaks of a ghost as having anything to do with Jesus' conception, is being being born of a "virgin" something that every NT writers who proclaims Jesus to have been/as the Christ, says? Is it something that Mark -- who most definitely proclaims Jesus to be the Christ -- says about Jesus?

Hey Jeffrey, I was wondering when you would join this discussion. I hope you had good holidays.

You make a good point here. Both Mark and John say nothing about the 'Alma.'

Quote:

the physical Messiah was prophesied by Daniel hundreds of years earlier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

"Hundreds" of years?? When specifically do you think the book of Daniel was written?

And where in Daniel is a "physical Messiah" (whatever that term means) spoken of, let alone "prophesied"?

Jeffrey

I will let aa answer for himself but with such an excellent description of Antiochus in Daniel's book, I'm going to side with other skeptics who presume Daniel to be written during the middle of the 2nd century BCE. I know that the prevailing Jewish and Christian position is that it was written 400 years previous to that.

I also agree that Daniel does not prophesy a 'physical Messiah.' I think Daniel is more important for it's eschetology...just MHO.

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